[Brandal]

Walddk, on Aug 15 2005, 02:45 PM, said:

Brandal, on Aug 15 2005, 12:10 PM, said:

Shouldn't abuse and this forum be flooded beyond belief
if the bad rulings are as bad a problem as it seems to
some here?

They should, absolutely! Do you know what the problem is? Most players don't know if they get a bad ruling or not, so they just comply with anything the TD may say and do.

Too many TDs get away with this. They may even think that they have made a correct ruling (according to the Laws of Duplicate Bridge). If that is the case, how can those individuals become better TDs?

Ignorance is no crime, but it's silly not to at least try to improve. The TDs in question know perfectly well if they are familiar with the laws or not.

Another reason why you don't get more complaints is the simplest of them all: Most players can't be bothered even if the ruling is somewhat dubious (to be diplomatic). They just get on with things.

Others don't compromise.

Roland

I agree with everything you say Roland,but....

Online it is not so easy to educate,improve,unless
a big effort is made.

What I suggest as a first step is to remove TD privelege
for those who make horrendous decisions,like playing TD
adjusting scores for himself,booting players he doesn't
like and so on.

I think we all can live with the occasional dubious
ruling,but I also agree it's silly to not try improving
TD skills.

Knowing the Law isn't the same as knowing how to
apply the Law,enforce the Law.

[DrTodd13]

candybar, on Aug 15 2005, 01:00 PM, said:

I am one of the ones who doesn't like to compromise, and I do know the rules.

Yesterday I posted about the director who insisted on explaining the alerted 2S bid for the opponent who refused to explain, and booted me from the tournament when I objected.

I sent the incident to Abuse as suggested, and here is the answer I got:

"I will remind [name removed] about proper bridge rules, and note this incident. I believe TD [name removed] was trying to be helpful, in case [name removed] was unable to communicate due to language problem, and see no reason to fault him for this. "

Correctness aside, I really don't think Abuse is the best person to saddle with complaints about bad director rulings. Bad behavior, even of TDs, yes, but maybe we should have some other person willing to look at ruling problems and help educate the TDs who make poor ones.

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done. (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back. I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape. I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again. This went on for about 30 iterations.) I personally think that to stop this behavior and (largely) eliminate the language barrier, we need to pop up a box where someone can describe length/shortness in each suit, a range of points, bal/unbal/unknown, and maybe a couple other things. When someone clicks on your bid then this box pops up and you should not be able to get rid of it by hitting escape. The only way to get rid of it would be to complete each section. Only then would an "OK" button appear that you could click. BBO enforces most of the rules of bridge and I think it should enforce this one as well. In real life, you can't just sit there and refuse to explain your bids. Refusing to explain should be something that the BBO software prohibits.

[pigpenz]

Full Disclosre as simple as that, its part of the game.

Funniets one I has was one opp doubles my partners raise of my minor suit to the four level with this response on the query.

" I dont have to tell you what my double means!"

Ok i thought so we played 4♣x +1

[jillybean]

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done. (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back. I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape. I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again. This went on for about 30 iterations.)

May I suggest, click on a bid once perhaps twice, if you get no response call the TD.


jb

[inquiry]

pigpenz, on Aug 19 2005, 12:22 PM, said:

" I dont have to tell you what my double means!"

Do us a favor, just drop any yellow a note the name of people who respond like this.

We assuem they don't understand how wrong this is, even if they happened to be playing in an internet coffeehouse at the time. We will gently explain the rules to them, and tell them that they need to read the rules of this site. If they then continue to violate our site rules (this is a violation) we will more forceable explain why it is wrong.

[DrTodd13]

jillybean2, on Aug 19 2005, 08:40 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done.  (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back.  I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape.  I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again.  This went on for about 30 iterations.)

May I suggest, click on a bid once perhaps twice, if you get no response call the TD.


jb

Doesn't work if there isn't a TD.

[Al_U_Card]

pigpenz, on Aug 19 2005, 11:22 AM, said:

Full Disclosre as simple as that, its part of the game.

Funniets one I has was one opp doubles my partners raise of my minor suit to the four level with this response on the query.

" I dont have to tell you what my double means!"

Ok i thought so we played 4♣x +1

Why would you ask what the dbl means? Whether he intends it as t/o, card showing or penalty, it is clear that you need only bid your hand and let the opps do their worst.......(unless of course the opp alerted his double....then you could expect an answer like "shows first round control of the suit and is not for t/o")

btw, are there any tourneys allowed where there are no "rules" and anything goes?

[pigpenz]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 19 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

btw, are there any tourneys allowed where there are no "rules" and anything goes?

Would you like one I can set it up and call it the Pairs from Hell

[candybar]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 19 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

btw, are there any tourneys allowed where there are no "rules" and anything goes?

If, by that, you mean are there any tournaments that allow all systems, conventions, and psyches, provided alertable, conventional, or unusual bids are alerted and fully disclosed .... yes, seems like more of them in the last few days.

Perhaps TDs are starting to realize that people actually want to play Bridge and not some other game.

[jdulmage]

That's amazing.

Oh well, I think we need to leave this to the abuse team and not the forums.

[candybar]

Another example tonight of a director explaining someone's bid incorrectly.

Auction went 1♣ P 1♥ 2♦ Dbl ....... my pard clicked the bid, got "No Information Available", I clicked it and got the same.

So based on this forum's suggestion, I just called the director. While he was coming, opponent said privately to me, "no body must answer x". I replied that ALL agreements must be explained if asked, including doubles.

The director arrived, we asked to know the meaning of the double, and two things happened simultaneously....

Opponent said to me privately, "ok I have fit".
Director said to me privately, "point dbl and punishment".

This is the reason that a director should never explain a bid ... he is telling what is in the opponent's hand, not what their agreement is.

[candybar]

This is getting even further out of hand!!!

Today:

I joined a tourament that the description said "Psyches not allowed 1st/2nd seat", with 18 minutes to go.

When the tournament started, the TD said "Psyches are not allowed". I checked the tournament description and it had been changed.

So I told him, that wasn't fair to change the "rules" after so many people had signed up.

He replied, "used too much is no psyche anymore and never alerted".

I pointed out that psyches are NEVER alertable.

He replied, "we prefer honest players"

I asked if he thought that psyches were dishonest.

He replied, "NO, but read BBO Rules, it is no psyche anymore" and then "read WBF."

I guess he never heard of Law 40A. How can I stay out of improperly run tournaments that change the "rules" after it starts?

FRED, can't you PLEASE do something about the horrible TD situation? There must be SOME way to put a stop to this idiocy.

[shoeless]

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much. To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour. I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be. Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors. Are they bad? Likely in some situations - yup. Are they destroying BBO? Not even close. Are they destroying your bridge life? Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

[Elianna]

candybar, on Sep 1 2005, 12:34 PM, said:

Today:

I joined a tourament that the description said "Psyches not allowed 1st/2nd seat", with 18 minutes to go.

I don't understand why you joined a tournament with the above description, as it does not follow the laws of bridge, either.

I agree that it is not really fair to change rules as the tournament starts, but you already had SOME warning that the director was changing laws of bridge.

[candybar]

Elianna, on Sep 1 2005, 04:43 PM, said:

candybar, on Sep 1 2005, 12:34 PM, said:

Today:

I joined a tourament that the description said "Psyches not allowed 1st/2nd seat", with 18 minutes to go.

I don't understand why you joined a tournament with the above description, as it does not follow the laws of bridge, either.

I agree that it is not really fair to change rules as the tournament starts, but you already had SOME warning that the director was changing laws of bridge.

This is true. I tolerate some of the bad directing when a partner wants to play in a particular tournament. This issue is about changing the rules at the last second.

Given my own choice, I would avoid all tournaments with these kind of directors, playing TDs, non-Laws, etc, but when I get sucked in by descriptions that are essentially lies, or changed at the last second, it is impossible to avoid them.

It's bad enough that these things are allowed, but at least the TDs could be forced to post correctly!

[rigour6]

As I have said before, I am certainly one of ther worst TDs going.

That said, there are differences between f2f and on-line. They include:

1. There are no stakes. The goal is to have fun, not accumulate masterpoints. So rather than making the emphasis on getting things right and fair, sometimes keeping things moving is at a premium. That's because I can't do late plays, I can't turn to a committee ruling. I have to balance my duty to the players asking me to do x, and y with my duty to the players who are just looking at the screen and wondering why they haven't moved to the next boards yet. Which brings me to my next point.

2. Unlike in f2f, the players can't see me or tell what I am doing. So I can be trying to solve your problem, but people don't know that, and everytime they message me there's a pop-up I have to move aside and get back to dealing with you. Sometimes 3 people call me from the same table. Sometimes the same guy calls me thrice but adds extra exclamation marks each time. Which brings me to my next point.

3. Certain people feel the anonymity of online allows them to be rude. You know those guys who are waiting while I solve your problem? Some of them aren't waiting patiently. They are sending me pop-ups and slowing me down. They are wondering how it is that 30 seconds have gone by and I haven't yet done the adjustment they requested. I COULD send a message to tourney to tell them what I am doing. Unlike in ftf I can't do that simultaneously with actually solving the problem. So I have to weight how informed I keep them with how fast i solve their problem.

4. Not everyone speaks any of the 3 languages I do, and even if they do I might try 2 before we get to the third.


Why do I say all this?

IF I ended up at a table where someone had overcalled 2 clubs or whatever and they had been asked to explain it and hadn't done so
AND time was a ticking
AND it seemed like language was a problem

There's a 50-50 chance I might type to the asking person, "It's a natural overcall."

Should I do that according to the rules? Of course not.
Would I do that in a ftf? Of course not?

So why would I do it in my free, 6 board tourney called "Ham Sandwich"?
Because it is a free 6 baord tourney called "Ham Sandwich", it is not the Bermuda Bowl qualifier.



Btw, anyone who feels TDs do a poor job is welcome to TD about 50 times,
You may still feel they do a poor job, but I guarantee you some new insights as to why.

[jillybean]

shoeless, on Sep 1 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much.  To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour.   I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be.  Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors.  Are they bad?  Likely in some situations - yup.  Are they destroying BBO? Not even close.  Are they destroying your bridge life?  Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

I can't agree more
next topic please

[jillybean]

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 10:17 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Aug 19 2005, 08:40 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done.  (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back.  I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape.  I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again.  This went on for about 30 iterations.)

May I suggest, click on a bid once perhaps twice, if you get no response call the TD.


jb

Doesn't work if there isn't a TD.

Well, you pay your money....

[candybar]

rigour6, on Sep 2 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

As I have said before, I am certainly one of ther worst TDs going.
That said, there are differences between f2f and on-line. They include:
1. There are no stakes. The goal is to have fun, not accumulate masterpoints.  So rather than making the emphasis on getting things right and fair, sometimes keeping things moving is at a premium.

jillybean2, on Sep 2 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

shoeless, on Sep 1 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much.  To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour.   I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be.  Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors.  Are they bad?  Likely in some situations - yup.  Are they destroying BBO? Not even close.  Are they destroying your bridge life?  Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

I can't agree more
next topic please

The goal of this game is to play well, to enjoy a partnership game with a chosen partner, against opponents who are playing fair and using the same rules for everyone, the rules of bridge.

I think the 'homing device' problem is not mine, but something that draws people to try and be a TD when they don't know the rules, don't care about them, care only about 'keeping things moving', and couldn't give a fig whether the players in their tournaments get a fair and enjoyable game of bridge or not. Ask yourself why you want to be a TD when you really don't care about doing it right.

I have been extremely surprised at the number of private emails and messages I have received from people agreeing with my posts in this forum.

Here is an example quote: "I highly regard and respect you for your candidness in these forums. In virtually every post you express my sentiments exactly." and "Thanks for your efforts. You speak for many players."

Frankly, I'd prefer that those "many players" would speak up for themselves, so I don't look like the lone ranger on these issues. However, one person said, "I decided a long time ago to stop posting because I don't believe that anyone cares if BBO improves or not."

So, flame me all you want, but all you do is intimidate people like the above quoted one from posting their honest opinions. As another person said, "BBO has become another yahoo but with a nicer interface", and I am doing the only thing I know to improve that situation -- make my ideas public.

[jillybean]

candybar, on Sep 2 2005, 07:46 PM, said:

Quote

I think the 'homing device' problem is not mine, but something that draws people to try and be a TD when they don't know the rules, don't care about them, care only about 'keeping things moving', and couldn't give a fig whether the players in their tournaments get a fair and enjoyable game of bridge or not.  Ask yourself why you want to be a TD when you really don't care about doing it right.

The problem is you are way off target with your ranting– do you really think the TD’s who read this forum fall into that category?

Quote

I have been extremely surprised at the number of private emails and messages I have received from people agreeing with my posts in this forum. 

Here is an example quote:  "I highly regard and respect you for your candidness in these forums.  In virtually every post you express my sentiments exactly." and "Thanks for your efforts.  You speak for many players." 

Frankly, I'd prefer that those "many players" would speak up for themselves, so I don't look like the lone ranger on these issues.  However, one person said, "I decided a long time ago to stop posting because I don't believe that anyone cares if BBO improves or not."

Those “many players” can easily speak up for themselves by choosing not to play in these tournaments, not many seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.

Quote

So, flame me all you want, but all you do is intimidate people like the above quoted one from posting their honest opinions.  As another person said, "BBO has become another yahoo but with a nicer interface", and I am doing the only thing I know to improve that situation -- make my ideas public.

Keep on ranting here about terrible TD’s, is it doing any good? All I think you will achieve is to intimidate people from trying out TD’ing and perhaps alienate the good ones who keep on reading this *&*(&^%

jb