[DrTodd13]

jillybean2, on Aug 19 2005, 08:40 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done.  (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back.  I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape.  I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again.  This went on for about 30 iterations.)

May I suggest, click on a bid once perhaps twice, if you get no response call the TD.


jb

Doesn't work if there isn't a TD.

[Al_U_Card]

pigpenz, on Aug 19 2005, 11:22 AM, said:

Full Disclosre as simple as that, its part of the game.

Funniets one I has was one opp doubles my partners raise of my minor suit to the four level with this response on the query.

" I dont have to tell you what my double means!"

Ok i thought so we played 4♣x +1

Why would you ask what the dbl means? Whether he intends it as t/o, card showing or penalty, it is clear that you need only bid your hand and let the opps do their worst.......(unless of course the opp alerted his double....then you could expect an answer like "shows first round control of the suit and is not for t/o")

btw, are there any tourneys allowed where there are no "rules" and anything goes?

[pigpenz]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 19 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

btw, are there any tourneys allowed where there are no "rules" and anything goes?

Would you like one I can set it up and call it the Pairs from Hell

[candybar]

Al_U_Card, on Aug 19 2005, 01:53 PM, said:

btw, are there any tourneys allowed where there are no "rules" and anything goes?

If, by that, you mean are there any tournaments that allow all systems, conventions, and psyches, provided alertable, conventional, or unusual bids are alerted and fully disclosed .... yes, seems like more of them in the last few days.

Perhaps TDs are starting to realize that people actually want to play Bridge and not some other game.

[jdulmage]

That's amazing.

Oh well, I think we need to leave this to the abuse team and not the forums.

[candybar]

Another example tonight of a director explaining someone's bid incorrectly.

Auction went 1♣ P 1♥ 2♦ Dbl ....... my pard clicked the bid, got "No Information Available", I clicked it and got the same.

So based on this forum's suggestion, I just called the director. While he was coming, opponent said privately to me, "no body must answer x". I replied that ALL agreements must be explained if asked, including doubles.

The director arrived, we asked to know the meaning of the double, and two things happened simultaneously....

Opponent said to me privately, "ok I have fit".
Director said to me privately, "point dbl and punishment".

This is the reason that a director should never explain a bid ... he is telling what is in the opponent's hand, not what their agreement is.

[candybar]

This is getting even further out of hand!!!

Today:

I joined a tourament that the description said "Psyches not allowed 1st/2nd seat", with 18 minutes to go.

When the tournament started, the TD said "Psyches are not allowed". I checked the tournament description and it had been changed.

So I told him, that wasn't fair to change the "rules" after so many people had signed up.

He replied, "used too much is no psyche anymore and never alerted".

I pointed out that psyches are NEVER alertable.

He replied, "we prefer honest players"

I asked if he thought that psyches were dishonest.

He replied, "NO, but read BBO Rules, it is no psyche anymore" and then "read WBF."

I guess he never heard of Law 40A. How can I stay out of improperly run tournaments that change the "rules" after it starts?

FRED, can't you PLEASE do something about the horrible TD situation? There must be SOME way to put a stop to this idiocy.

[shoeless]

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much. To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour. I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be. Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors. Are they bad? Likely in some situations - yup. Are they destroying BBO? Not even close. Are they destroying your bridge life? Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

[Elianna]

candybar, on Sep 1 2005, 12:34 PM, said:

Today:

I joined a tourament that the description said "Psyches not allowed 1st/2nd seat", with 18 minutes to go.

I don't understand why you joined a tournament with the above description, as it does not follow the laws of bridge, either.

I agree that it is not really fair to change rules as the tournament starts, but you already had SOME warning that the director was changing laws of bridge.

[candybar]

Elianna, on Sep 1 2005, 04:43 PM, said:

candybar, on Sep 1 2005, 12:34 PM, said:

Today:

I joined a tourament that the description said "Psyches not allowed 1st/2nd seat", with 18 minutes to go.

I don't understand why you joined a tournament with the above description, as it does not follow the laws of bridge, either.

I agree that it is not really fair to change rules as the tournament starts, but you already had SOME warning that the director was changing laws of bridge.

This is true. I tolerate some of the bad directing when a partner wants to play in a particular tournament. This issue is about changing the rules at the last second.

Given my own choice, I would avoid all tournaments with these kind of directors, playing TDs, non-Laws, etc, but when I get sucked in by descriptions that are essentially lies, or changed at the last second, it is impossible to avoid them.

It's bad enough that these things are allowed, but at least the TDs could be forced to post correctly!

[rigour6]

As I have said before, I am certainly one of ther worst TDs going.

That said, there are differences between f2f and on-line. They include:

1. There are no stakes. The goal is to have fun, not accumulate masterpoints. So rather than making the emphasis on getting things right and fair, sometimes keeping things moving is at a premium. That's because I can't do late plays, I can't turn to a committee ruling. I have to balance my duty to the players asking me to do x, and y with my duty to the players who are just looking at the screen and wondering why they haven't moved to the next boards yet. Which brings me to my next point.

2. Unlike in f2f, the players can't see me or tell what I am doing. So I can be trying to solve your problem, but people don't know that, and everytime they message me there's a pop-up I have to move aside and get back to dealing with you. Sometimes 3 people call me from the same table. Sometimes the same guy calls me thrice but adds extra exclamation marks each time. Which brings me to my next point.

3. Certain people feel the anonymity of online allows them to be rude. You know those guys who are waiting while I solve your problem? Some of them aren't waiting patiently. They are sending me pop-ups and slowing me down. They are wondering how it is that 30 seconds have gone by and I haven't yet done the adjustment they requested. I COULD send a message to tourney to tell them what I am doing. Unlike in ftf I can't do that simultaneously with actually solving the problem. So I have to weight how informed I keep them with how fast i solve their problem.

4. Not everyone speaks any of the 3 languages I do, and even if they do I might try 2 before we get to the third.


Why do I say all this?

IF I ended up at a table where someone had overcalled 2 clubs or whatever and they had been asked to explain it and hadn't done so
AND time was a ticking
AND it seemed like language was a problem

There's a 50-50 chance I might type to the asking person, "It's a natural overcall."

Should I do that according to the rules? Of course not.
Would I do that in a ftf? Of course not?

So why would I do it in my free, 6 board tourney called "Ham Sandwich"?
Because it is a free 6 baord tourney called "Ham Sandwich", it is not the Bermuda Bowl qualifier.



Btw, anyone who feels TDs do a poor job is welcome to TD about 50 times,
You may still feel they do a poor job, but I guarantee you some new insights as to why.

[jillybean]

shoeless, on Sep 1 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much.  To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour.   I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be.  Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors.  Are they bad?  Likely in some situations - yup.  Are they destroying BBO? Not even close.  Are they destroying your bridge life?  Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

I can't agree more
next topic please

[jillybean]

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 10:17 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Aug 19 2005, 08:40 AM, said:

DrTodd13, on Aug 19 2005, 09:13 AM, said:

I'll keep repeating it until it gets done.  (Same thing happened to me a couple weeks back.  I clicked on a bid and opp hit escape.  I clicked on bid again, and opp hit escape again.  This went on for about 30 iterations.)

May I suggest, click on a bid once perhaps twice, if you get no response call the TD.


jb

Doesn't work if there isn't a TD.

Well, you pay your money....

[candybar]

rigour6, on Sep 2 2005, 12:26 PM, said:

As I have said before, I am certainly one of ther worst TDs going.
That said, there are differences between f2f and on-line. They include:
1. There are no stakes. The goal is to have fun, not accumulate masterpoints.  So rather than making the emphasis on getting things right and fair, sometimes keeping things moving is at a premium.

jillybean2, on Sep 2 2005, 12:44 PM, said:

shoeless, on Sep 1 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

I think you have a homing device for inadequate directors Candybar - my recommendation - turn it off - find and play in the tournaments directed by people who don't do those things that annoy you so much.  To my mind trashing people who are trying (likely learning in the process), maybe don't know as much as you, and giving their time to organize something for others, isn't exactly saintly behaviour.   I do not believe for one minute that this situation is as poisonous as you make it out to be.  Thousands of people play here everyday and we have a handful of forum users sniping at bad directors.  Are they bad?  Likely in some situations - yup.  Are they destroying BBO? Not even close.  Are they destroying your bridge life?  Nope, think this is a blast for you. I remember some dark days when I was terminally cranky and a friend of mine saying, "Shoeless, your garbage is starting to stink - you should take it out."

I can't agree more
next topic please

The goal of this game is to play well, to enjoy a partnership game with a chosen partner, against opponents who are playing fair and using the same rules for everyone, the rules of bridge.

I think the 'homing device' problem is not mine, but something that draws people to try and be a TD when they don't know the rules, don't care about them, care only about 'keeping things moving', and couldn't give a fig whether the players in their tournaments get a fair and enjoyable game of bridge or not. Ask yourself why you want to be a TD when you really don't care about doing it right.

I have been extremely surprised at the number of private emails and messages I have received from people agreeing with my posts in this forum.

Here is an example quote: "I highly regard and respect you for your candidness in these forums. In virtually every post you express my sentiments exactly." and "Thanks for your efforts. You speak for many players."

Frankly, I'd prefer that those "many players" would speak up for themselves, so I don't look like the lone ranger on these issues. However, one person said, "I decided a long time ago to stop posting because I don't believe that anyone cares if BBO improves or not."

So, flame me all you want, but all you do is intimidate people like the above quoted one from posting their honest opinions. As another person said, "BBO has become another yahoo but with a nicer interface", and I am doing the only thing I know to improve that situation -- make my ideas public.

[jillybean]

candybar, on Sep 2 2005, 07:46 PM, said:

Quote

I think the 'homing device' problem is not mine, but something that draws people to try and be a TD when they don't know the rules, don't care about them, care only about 'keeping things moving', and couldn't give a fig whether the players in their tournaments get a fair and enjoyable game of bridge or not.  Ask yourself why you want to be a TD when you really don't care about doing it right.

The problem is you are way off target with your ranting– do you really think the TD’s who read this forum fall into that category?

Quote

I have been extremely surprised at the number of private emails and messages I have received from people agreeing with my posts in this forum. 

Here is an example quote:  "I highly regard and respect you for your candidness in these forums.  In virtually every post you express my sentiments exactly." and "Thanks for your efforts.  You speak for many players." 

Frankly, I'd prefer that those "many players" would speak up for themselves, so I don't look like the lone ranger on these issues.  However, one person said, "I decided a long time ago to stop posting because I don't believe that anyone cares if BBO improves or not."

Those “many players” can easily speak up for themselves by choosing not to play in these tournaments, not many seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.

Quote

So, flame me all you want, but all you do is intimidate people like the above quoted one from posting their honest opinions.  As another person said, "BBO has become another yahoo but with a nicer interface", and I am doing the only thing I know to improve that situation -- make my ideas public.

Keep on ranting here about terrible TD’s, is it doing any good? All I think you will achieve is to intimidate people from trying out TD’ing and perhaps alienate the good ones who keep on reading this *&*(&^%

jb

[golfacer]

Quote

rigour6 Posted on Sep 2 2005, 12:26 PM
Btw, anyone who feels TDs do a poor job is welcome to TD about 50 times

I have directed 50+ tournaments on BBO since January 2004. Before I make my point, I should say that I appreciate the efforts of every director who attempts to direct a tournament well.

Quote

candybar Posted on Sep 2 2005, 09:46 PM
The goal of this game is to play well, to enjoy a partnership game with a chosen partner, against opponents who are playing fair and using the same rules for everyone, the rules of bridge.

I agree 100% with candybar. I would also hate to commit myself to a 14-board tournament, then learn after it starts that the director has no clue of how to fairly run a tournament, refuses to make adjustments, uses predealt hands without warning, or otherwise does something totally unexpected. I would also fully support a system (previously suggested by candybar) that recgonizes experienced BBO directors who are willing and able to conform to certain standards. Of course I don't think that I am perfect as a director, but I try to be perfect and am willing to learn if I do make a mistake.

[pigpenz]

golfacer, on Sep 3 2005, 05:26 AM, said:

refuses to make adjustments, uses predealt hands without warning, or otherwise does something totally unexpected.

I have directed about20-40 games also and its not an easy matter, there is no such thing as running a game on autopilot.

Golfacer...what difference does it make if the hands are predealt. I have often thought of making the hands with dealmaster pro and posting the hand records with deep finesse analysis on a web page after the game...just curious unless by predelt you mean goulash, where its better to not bid and just double the final contract.

[candybar]

jillybean2, on Sep 3 2005, 12:51 AM, said:

The problem is you are way off target with your ranting– do you really think the TD’s who read this forum fall into that category?

No, I think the TDs who read this forum are mostly those who DO want to help improve the situation. The feedback I have been getting is very encouraging to this end. Some have offered to help. Some have said they would like to have some better training themselves.

I'm still hoping that the rest will come to realize it's a positive move to put a stop to the kind of silliness that I 'rant' about, and jump on the bandwagon to help.

[candybar]

pigpenz, on Sep 3 2005, 07:24 AM, said:

...what difference does it make if the hands are predealt.

I think the problem is not predealt, but failing to post that it is predealt in the tournament description. IF someone doesn't want to play predealt, for whatever reason, they have a right to know before they register.

jillybean2, on Sep 3 2005, 12:51 AM, said:

Those “many players” can easily speak up for themselves by choosing not to play in these tournaments, not many seem to be putting their money where their mouth is.

First of all, you cannot tell if they are or not. But most of all, there are simply so many of these tournaments that people just sign up for whatever is available. That doesn't mean they wouldn't prefer a well-run tournament, it just means they don't have the choice. I would like to see enough better tournaments running that there IS a choice, and then I predict you will see them 'voting with their feet'.

jillybean2, on Sep 3 2005, 12:51 AM, said:

All I think you will achieve is to intimidate people from trying out TD’ing and perhaps alienate the good ones who keep on reading this *&*(&^%

I think convincing people who are not qualified to TD to learn what they should be doing BEFORE they start running games is a good thing. I also think we desperately need a way that they CAN learn. I very much doubt that the knowledgable TDs who run good games are alienated by attempts to improve the less knowledgable ones. By the way, do you really think it's "*&*(&^%" to want to know the 'rules' of the tournament before you register for it?

We need TWO things:

1. We need the TD Wish List software implemented as soon as possible.
2. We need a TD organization for communication and education among the TDs.

Fred and Uday have to do #1. I'm hereby taking volunteers for #2.

[jillybean]

Great, form a TD organization to help and train TD's and imrpove the quality of tournaments.
Please STOP playing in terrible free tournaments and complaining about clueless TD's. That is the *(&*(&% I refer to!

jb