[inquiry]

SoTired, on Jun 21 2005, 12:51 PM, said:

Do you want to advise your students, "There are some situations where you might want to pass a 2C opener. Use your own judgement."?

No one is crazy enough to want to try to learn from me... :-)

I have, admiittedly, distorted views of biddings. Very little original ideas (but then who does?), but very stong views on what the "right" options are for me (and will freely admit what works for me will probalby not work for everyone). I steal heavily from Robson/Segal, ETM victory, Mishovnbg, and Chris Ryall.

But back the point of this hand. I freely admit passing 2♣ is not something that be done, but I also point out that sometimes, we all do things we know that is wrong if we think, in the condition at hand, it gives us the best (legal) chance to win. What I would hope to do for any student is try to teach them to think... and in the process, what to think about....

Ben

[FrancesHinden]

You didn't read my post carefully enough (as Blofeld says) - I said passing 2C is more likely to be right if PARTNER is the cretin whom you can't trust to have a sensible post-2C auction with. If you're going to be guessing later in the auction you may as well guess now instead.

Mind you, if I held the hand you suggested and I needed an outright top in a matchpoint event I wouldn't pass 2C. Now we're getting into the realms of obscure hypotheses (I've never yet BEEN in an event where I knew I needed an outright top - not an avge plus - at one particular board, presumably the last).

Here's why: Most of the time when I'm playing pairs I believe that my partner & I are better than the "field average"* . In particular, I think we have better judgement after opening 2C and I think we are better declarer players (at least my usual partners are bloody good at declaring & I'll probably be dummy after a 2C opener). So when partner opens 2C the last thing I'll do is something strange, because I believe that my matchpoint expectation is very high to start with. I'd rather have a balanced 13 count and hear partner open a strong NT - now I could pass to shoot for a top on the offchance that they have 5 cashers or similar.

*this doesn't apply next week!

[mike777]

Amazing in only 9 days we have over 2600 hits and 11 pages of comments on passing an opening bid of 2clubs. If this topic is this hot, how many more pages to learn the rest of basic bridge and I can start playing?

[Free]

mike777, on Jun 21 2005, 11:08 PM, said:

Amazing in only 9 days we have over 2600 hits and 11 pages of comments on passing an opening bid of 2clubs. If this topic is this hot, how many more pages to learn the rest of basic bridge and I can start playing?

Lol, I can summarize this thread in a few simple words: "keep your partnership healty, or start passing ANY forcing bid"...

[Al_U_Card]

Just shows that we probably have too much free time...........For me, it is wrong-headed to justify a patently anti-partnership action notwithstanding any perceived "state of the match" or "value of your hand" considerations.

I once kibbed a hi-level swiss game where they went for 1400 and then tried to swing the match on the last 2 hands. Unfortunately, at comparison, the opps went for 1700 on that hand and the last 2 boards cost them the match.

btw, cretin is defined as someone who due to thyroid deficiency in infancy is severely physically and mentally retarded.......

[rigour6]

1) Thanks for a hilarious thread.

2) I think the joke goes something like this:
Inspector: Were you there when the gentleman died?
Butler: No sir, I was in the adjoining room, I could hear everything but couldn't see.
Inspector: What did you hear?
Butler: I heard "2 Clubs, pass, pass, pass, bang! bang! bang!"

3) Whatever you gain on passing 2 Clubs, you will almost certainly lose in your partner's concentration over the next few hands as he thinks, "what the hell?" and his terrifying uncertainty the next time he picks up a 2 club hand.

4) Partner may have game in his hand and only be waiting for you to let him know if there's a slam.

5) The bigger point:
Pass in this situation reveals a nearly complete narcissism in that you are "captaining" the hand in a situation you have absolutely no right to.
In any auction, information is exchanged until one person has enough to make a decision or to pose the key question to the other person.
In some auctions that's obvious, many 1 NT openings for example, make responder the captain. In other auctions it's not, but a) never assume you are the person captaining, and b ) never grab the captaincy when it clearly belongs to your partner.

This is what the understanding of balancing is all about.

I give another example:

You open 3 diamonds
Pass
Pass
3 Hearts

What do you do now? Well, with many many hands, the answer is obvious: Pass.
Why? Because presumably your 3 diamonds opening gave p a very good picture of your hand, and since he knows what you have and you don't know what he has, why not let the partner with the better knowledge make the decision?


6) So in summary, this is not the answer for experts, and if you have a partnership understanding that could survive or even welcome 2 clubs - pass, then great.
But for most beginning and intermediate players, 2 clubs - pass is like pouring acid on the foundations, you are saying "partner, I can't trust you" and, more damaging still, "partner, you can't trust me." You are inviting your partner to abandon your bidding system on very little provocation, and that will invite a kind of free flow bidding which is no communicative, effective, relaxing, accurate, or enjoyable.

It's Ok to want to take big risks, but the purpose of bidding is to make them calculated risks. A risk taken without information is not a calculated one.

[rigour6]

inquiry, on Jun 21 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 21 2005, 12:51 PM, said:

Do you want to advise your students, "There are some situations where you might want to pass a 2C opener. Use your own judgement."?

No one is crazy enough to want to try to learn from me... :-)


What I would hope to do for any student is try to teach them to think... and in the process, what to think about....

Ben

1) If my partner has got so much on the ball mentally that they can devote brain power to this question in an auction, why did they devote so little of it into choosing a partner such that they ended up with me?

2) Every 10 seconds my partner spends in contemplation of this scenario at the table takes approximately a month from my expected lifespan.

3) Have you ever had that discussion with your wife where you broke the established rule because there was a special circumstance? How did that work out for you? Do you really want to pay the price of a) having every sin in the future compared to this one? b ) having her do far worse things and then claim they were Ok by analogy?

Even if you can keep the volume down, I think your life would be better served by having the shared story of "the time we would have won it all if only p had passed my 2 club opener" than "let me tell you about the time my p passed my 2 clubs and we went from 2nd place to 15th on the last board."

[sceptic]

Quote

btw, cretin is defined as someone who due to thyroid deficiency in infancy is severely physically and mentally retarded......

Yes I am fully aware, my daughter and granddaughter have the condition, I can explain to anyone in private, why I think that the use of that word is rather inappropriate for a supposedly intellegent person to be using ( this is not aimed at the person who explained what a cretin is),

Using thyroxin, from the age of 3 weeks, which is usually when it is discovered in babies ( I was reliably informed by a paediatrician), those people unfortunate to have the condition, can lead a normal life and no one would be any the wiser, I just hope that next time you use that as an expression to describe a bridge player, you are standing next to me as I would love to educate you about the impact of what a nasty thougtless remark does to peoples feelings.

[rigour6]

Well, I just learned something I didn't know (about "cretins"), and was reminded of something I wish I didn't need to be (that in written bulletin board postings, it's awfully easy for things to degenerate, whereas in person, tone of voice and facial expression allows people to stay on topic and avoid unthinkingly offending each other).

[FrancesHinden]

Sorry.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Jun 13 2005, 02:02 PM, said:

I opened a strong club once and passed 1D with 2272 15 count Pard had 7 hearts lol

I once held a 1822 2 count. We had this auction with me as responder:
1♣ (16+) 1♦ (0-7)
1♥ (20+) 1♠ (0-4)
And as I was planning to start bidding a lot of hearts now, partner passed on a 5233 20 count. BOO!

[jjbrr]

Hello, 2005

[jdonn]

new record?

[cherdanno]

And I still remembered this thread! (Including Frances' odd suggestion to pass a 13 count opposite a strong NT in order to swing...)

[helene_t]

Playing against GIBs, I opened 1♣ in first seat and it went:
1♣-pass-1♦-dbl
1♥-pass-1♠-2♣
pass-?
GIB has x-Qx-Jxxx-Txxxxx
and passes his partner's cuebid! The robot's partner had a singleton club.

[Fluffy]

I also remembered there was someone who passed 2♣ and it trned out well, but didn't remember it was wayne who did it.


Josh can you explain us how did you come back to this thread and why did you reopen it?

[billw55]

Wow hilarious necro. How did such an lol thread get to 12 pages!

[jdonn]

Fluffy, on Aug 15 2010, 06:16 PM, said:

I also remembered there was someone who passed 2♣ and it trned out well, but didn't remember it was wayne who did it.


Josh can you explain us how did you come back to this thread and why did you reopen it?

How was someone else linked to it, why was to drive you insane.

[neilkaz]

I thought about this thread yesterday with Jx,xxx,xx,Jxxxxx but I dutifully responded and gave a 2nd negative and passed after 2♣-2♦-2♠-3♣-4♥ and watched my partner try to get an OT. He had a 5-5 monster and I figured he had to have 5 ♥ for his jump so no "preference" back to ♠.

Passing 2♣ is silly .. neilkaz ..

[Fluffy]

jdonn, on Aug 16 2010, 10:32 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 15 2010, 06:16 PM, said:

I also remembered there was someone who passed 2♣ and it trned out well, but didn't remember it was wayne who did it.


Josh can you explain us how did you come back to this thread and why did you reopen it?

How was someone else linked to it, why was to drive you insane.

uh? not insane at all, was just curious, I couldn't understand it