[TheoKole]

My apologies for the misunderstanding,

By "take offense" I meant that I disagree strongly with the decision. I have never yelled or even spoken strongly to even my pick-up partners for any mistakes they make.

If my partner who did this was a beginner or even intermediate, I would have a talk with them (away from the table) about forcing bids and partnership trust. With an advanced or expert player, (who should know better) I would take the bidding as a sign of distrust and would probably refuse politely to play with them in any scoring games.

Just my thoughts,

Cheers

[luke warm]

yeah, i agree.. with a beginning player i'd be more understanding.. it took a long time to break my wife of the habit of bidding 2nt in a stayman sequence, so i know how hard it can be

[Chamaco]

MickyB, on Jun 19 2005, 01:21 PM, said:

Wouldn't you prefer to be in a partnership where you trust each other to exercise judgement and to do the best thing on the hand in question, with no recriminations for doing so?

The point is that responder in front of a 2C opener has no elements that allows him to "exert judgment" on the potential of the combined hands passing, for a very SIMPLE REASON: he knows NOTHING AT ALL of opener's hand.

He is not exerting judgment, he is IMPOSING to pard a contract, by seeing only his card.
Responder, by passing, is playing only with his cards.

This is bad regardless of whether it gives a good or bad score.

And - to me - it looks silly or presumptuous for responder to be willing to take the final guess without knowing anything of opener's hand, especially breaking a partnership agreement.

Now tell me: what makes you think that responder has more elements than opener to place the contract ("exert judgment")?
The fact that responder has 0 hcp and long clubs is not a good enough reason: opener knows that responder hold a yarborough and yet he forced anyways.

[badderzboy]

If I EVER passed the 2♣ or equiv bid deliberately (I'd need 2 more clubs lol) I would hold my hands to my hand and plead vociferously I thought it was 1♣.

My partner after spitting feathers, numerous expletives and probably making 2♣ and not much else on the hand in question might forgive me and ask me to clean my glasses in future...

I do remember passing and ACOL 2♥ (8 playing and people telling me you can't pass that bid!!! ( It made exactly 8 and I had a yarborough... and got a top!).

The moral of the story is don't pass unless you're a damn good liar!!!

Steve

[the hog]

The value of a pass can easily be shown by putting this hand opposite:
♠ J53
♥ T
D T975
♣ T9832

AKQxxxx
Axx
AKQ

With 7S cold you are likely going off in 2C. Great pass! End of story.

[bearmum]

sceptic, on Jun 20 2005, 03:14 AM, said:

I still can't get into my head, why you would take offence at (I think I understand you) my passing the order to bid.

I screwed up, that is all, surely that does not entitle you (if you were my p) to take offence a good p is forgiving p, not someone that screws up even in such a blatantly bad fashion

Sceptic --- forgive me if I have misunderstood you
The first post of the string you asked what we thought of your PASS of your partner's 2♣ (supposingly forcing) bid ??

Now you seem to be saying you made a mistake with the pass -- which is an entirely different question --- and if you apologised immediately to P ( like SORRY P -- I really made a HUGE boo boo ) then hopefully the person with whom you were playing would be forgiving

BUT
As I said early in this string IF partner makes a forcing bid ( whatever that is and in whatever bidding sequence) for the sake of partnership trust I believe it is YOUR responsibility not to pass!!

SO in the example quoted you should not pass because there are lots of hands -- see the one posted by Hog as the extreme -- where 2♣ will not be a good result If partner has made an incorrect forcing bid and you get a bad result -- THEN you can make up your mind if you need to clarify what bids are forcing (if a long term partnership -- or just put him/her on your "do not play with again" list

[sceptic]

Quote

Now you seem to be saying you made a mistake with the pass -- which is an entirely different question --- and if you apologised immediately to P ( like SORRY P -- I really made a HUGE boo boo ) then hopefully the person with whom you were playing would be forgiving

No I thought I was quite clear, I deliberatley passed. I made a mistake in judgement or my action (which ever you prefer)

[Al_U_Card]

Here's my 2 cents.

Notwithstanding that my 2C openings show more quick tricks than losers (I can make game opposite a balanced yarborough (therefore responder's hand has trump support even if it has 12 losers)) or the 2C shows a balanced 22+ hcp and the 2NT rebid can be passed, I would NEVER pass a 2C opener because I could not bear to remove the pleasure of making that bid from my partner, whatever their skill level etc.

Keeping your pard happy about his actions and yours is what it is all about.

Bridge, THE PARTNERship game.

[SoTired]

My 2 cents. All this talk about partnership trust, probabilities, "Never playing with them again", "Every mistake is the same, why this one so bad"

None of that matters, although it all makes sense.

For me, the subject of this thread is correct: "...the idiot passes" and since they said it, I think I can repeat it without a violation.

Only an idiot would pass an artificial, near game-force 2C opener. Would I play with that person again? No, because I don't like to play with idiots. Others who say they would still play with that partner have a higher tolerance than I do.

Would I go through 10 pages of notes trying to convince them that passing 2C is a terrible bid? No, because anyone who would argue that point is beyond reasoning. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." is very applicable.

Similar to this situation: Your 15-year-old daughter comes crying to you and says, "Yes, he is 38-years-old, out on parole for armed robbery, alcoholic and drug abuser, and beats me up occassionally, but I LOVE HIM! Why won't you listen when I explain his good points and let me marry him?"

"Because you are an idiot, my dear."

Same thing.

[JSilver]

Al_U_Card, on Jun 20 2005, 07:42 AM, said:

Here's my 2 cents.

Notwithstanding that my 2C openings show more quick tricks than losers (I can make game opposite a balanced yarborough (therefore responder's hand has trump support even if it has 12 losers)) or the 2C shows a balanced 22+ hcp and the 2NT rebid can be passed, I would NEVER pass a 2C opener because I could not bear to remove the pleasure of making that bid from my partner, whatever their skill level etc. 

Keeping your pard happy about his actions and yours is what it is all about. 

Bridge, THE PARTNERship game. 

Pleasure? I hate opening 2♣. It's often a real challenge to identify the best contract. The hand in question is a case in point, I suppose.

Having to open a variety of strong hands 2♣ is the price you pay to play weak twos. I'm willing to pay it, but it gives me no pleasure.

[sceptic]

if you are going to be quite so opinionated, please use your proper ID

[inquiry]

sceptic, on Jun 20 2005, 02:13 PM, said:

if you are going to be quite so opinionated, please use your proper ID

Not sure you are refering too.. but again, I can think of one situation where passing a forcing 2♣ opening bid is the "percentage" play. I gave it already, so newbies to this thread will have to wade through the seven pages of this thread to find it... :-)

And if my partner passed in that case, rather it worked out or not, I would congradulate him for keeping his head in the game.

[Al_U_Card]

JSilver, on Jun 20 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Jun 20 2005, 07:42 AM, said:

Here's my 2 cents.

Notwithstanding that my 2C openings show more quick tricks than losers (I can make game opposite a balanced yarborough (therefore responder's hand has trump support even if it has 12 losers)) or the 2C shows a balanced 22+ hcp and the 2NT rebid can be passed, I would NEVER pass a 2C opener because I could not bear to remove the pleasure of making that bid from my partner, whatever their skill level etc. 

Keeping your pard happy about his actions and yours is what it is all about. 

Bridge, THE PARTNERship game. 

Pleasure? I hate opening 2♣. It's often a real challenge to identify the best contract. The hand in question is a case in point, I suppose.

Having to open a variety of strong hands 2♣ is the price you pay to play weak twos. I'm willing to pay it, but it gives me no pleasure.

Then I guess it's lucky that they don't come up too often......lol.

I guess I may have a masochistic bent but seeing a bland 9 count rarely gets me going while a shapely 23 hcp hand is always a joyous harbinger of things to come ( to hell with the eventual result).

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jun 20 2005, 06:18 PM, said:

sceptic, on Jun 20 2005, 02:13 PM, said:

if you are going to be quite so opinionated, please use your proper ID

Not sure you are refering too..

I am pretty sure he was referring to the post by "SoTired", which stated:

"For me, the subject of this thread is correct: "...the idiot passes" and since they said it, I think I can repeat it without a violation.

Only an idiot would pass an artificial, near game-force 2C opener.
.........
"

And then he goes on with other quite strong claims.

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Jun 20 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

The value of a pass can easily be shown by putting this hand opposite:
♠ J53
♥ T
D T975
♣ T9832

AKQxxxx
Axx
AKQ

With 7S cold you are likely going off in 2C. Great pass! End of story.

Only 22 HCP, I probavbly would open tht only with 1♠ :-P

[Fluffy]

Reading TheoKole's tale have reminded one of the sadest hands I've played.

It was 7 years ago, I played for the first time my aunt, it was the first board of a 2 seassons tourney, I held:

Scoring: MP

N - E - S - W
1♦-ps-1♥-ps
1♠-ps-2♣*-ps
2NT-ps-4NT**-ps
5♥-ps-7♣-ps
....

---

2♣*= althou 3♣ is the natural bid I prefered to take some contrtol due to the extrra strtenght.
4NT**= One of the very few things we had agreed was that 4NT always was blackwood cos she was afraid of missunderstandings, I would had never though I would enjoy of that situation.... in fact I didn't after all.

After I bid 7♣ opponents got his passes from the table to the bidding box, but my partner didn't, it took her 2 or 3 long minutes where I was thinking: Oh well she might have ♥Q and 7NT is cold then, maybe she realises the value of the card.

While she was thinking: My poor nephew is only 18 years old, he doen't know how to play this game, hwo can I let him play a grand slam?. I probably should not let him fall, our best spot is that I play the hand in 7NT.

So she bid 7NT, and went 1 off even when ♥Q was onside but 4th. I am veryproud of my reaction of stating nothing at all, it was first board of 52 to be played so better stay calm and don't break partnerships (althou I for the first and only time in my life felt to stand up and leave, maybe if I had had driving licence....).

Maybe saying no word was not a good idea, on second season I oipened 1♥ and she finished playing another 7NT with 3♥ in her hand were 7♥ was cold and 7NT scored -50, I decided to not play with her again on my life, but 7 years had passed and I played again a couple months ago

[FrancesHinden]

There are two different debates going on here.

1. Is it ever right to pass a forcing bid on purpose?

Well, that's a matter of partnership style not absolute morals. For some people forcing = forcing, don't pass unless you've made a grotesque psyche (if you're just rather light, please don't pass). For others, forcing only means that partner thinks his hand is worth a forcing bid based on what you've shown so far, if you don't have it then you can pass (such as the 1S - 1NT - 3D auction discussed, or the often-quoted Woolsey 1C-1S-2H auction).

The short answer for me is that if partner doesn't want you to pass forcing bids, then don't. Also, if you don't have exceptionally good judgement, then don't.

(I don't do it any more. Every time I did it in the past I have got a bad result, every time I didn't do it when I was tempted I have got a good result. Playless games make quite often.)

2. If your partnership allows the odd pass, should you ever pass a 2C opening?

I think the answer to this is no. Not for issues of partnership trust (we've addressed that in Q1 above), but because I simply CANNOT construct a hand where there is a better expected score from passing the 2C bid than from bidding. If I could, then why shouldn't I pass on it?

If partner is a cretin with no bidding judgement that might be different, but why am I playing with him/her in that case?

[inquiry]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 21 2005, 11:19 AM, said:

1. Is it ever right to pass a forcing bid on purpose?


2. If your partnership allows the odd pass, should you ever pass a 2C opening?


If partner is a cretin with no bidding judgement that might be different, but why am I playing with him/her in that case?

I guess I am a cretin. Because as I said in this post in this thread http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=73894, I can imagine a situation where I would pass partners forcing 2♣ opening bid.

Now, don't agree with it if you want, but I stand by what I said. In that extremely rare sitution, needing a top, I might very well take a swing for a matchpoint top. The conditions have to be perfect for me to do this. Type of score (matchpoints only), stage of the event (very late), need for a top -- average or average plus will not do (desperate), quality of hand (very weak), legnth in clubs (very long).

Is this bridge? Passing partner's forcing 2♣ where he might have 12 tricks in his hand? No, but who ever said matchpoints was bridge. If he has sure 12 tricks, bidding the slam would be AVERAGE... and the condition I set up, average doesn't help. This pass of a forcing 2♣ will create a much needed swing ... sure it will go against you anytime your partner can make something other than clubs, but if clubs is the right contract, you may have just gotten your top. Imagine, for instance a hand like this...

S-xx H-Jx D-xx C-Jxxxxxxx

Partner opens 2♣ and you need a cold top, last hand of the event. IF you bid 2♦, you will not be able to play 3♣. So with this hand, at matchpoints, needing a top, very late in the event, I would pass. At imps, rubber, or matchpoint under any other condition, I would make my negative bid (whatever it is) and not pass....

So, as I said in my first post, passing forcing 2♣ is not a good thing to do, and my rule is NEVER do it. However, like all rules, there can be exceptional circumstances where breaking the rules makes sense. This is the circumstances where I would break this one.

Cretins of the world-unite... :-)

[Blofeld]

To be fair, Ben, Frances said that things might be different (i.e. it might be worth considering passing 2♣) if partner (i.e. the 2♣ opener) were a cretin.

[SoTired]

inquiry, on Jun 21 2005, 10:47 AM, said:

I guess I am a cretin. Because as I said in this post in this thread http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=73894, I can imagine a situation where I would pass partners forcing 2♣ opening bid.

Oh, Ben. This is unfair. You are a good bridge player. You have theorized the once-in-a-blue-moon scenario where passing a 2C opener might make sense. The original poster passed an ordinary 5♣ zero-count (I think, I am not looking it up again). Do you want to advise your students, "There are some situations where you might want to pass a 2C opener. Use your own judgement."?