[JSilver]

Al_U_Card, on Jun 20 2005, 07:42 AM, said:

Here's my 2 cents.

Notwithstanding that my 2C openings show more quick tricks than losers (I can make game opposite a balanced yarborough (therefore responder's hand has trump support even if it has 12 losers)) or the 2C shows a balanced 22+ hcp and the 2NT rebid can be passed, I would NEVER pass a 2C opener because I could not bear to remove the pleasure of making that bid from my partner, whatever their skill level etc. 

Keeping your pard happy about his actions and yours is what it is all about. 

Bridge, THE PARTNERship game. 

Pleasure? I hate opening 2♣. It's often a real challenge to identify the best contract. The hand in question is a case in point, I suppose.

Having to open a variety of strong hands 2♣ is the price you pay to play weak twos. I'm willing to pay it, but it gives me no pleasure.

[inquiry]

sceptic, on Jun 20 2005, 02:13 PM, said:

if you are going to be quite so opinionated, please use your proper ID

Not sure you are refering too.. but again, I can think of one situation where passing a forcing 2♣ opening bid is the "percentage" play. I gave it already, so newbies to this thread will have to wade through the seven pages of this thread to find it... :-)

And if my partner passed in that case, rather it worked out or not, I would congradulate him for keeping his head in the game.

[Al_U_Card]

JSilver, on Jun 20 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Jun 20 2005, 07:42 AM, said:

Here's my 2 cents.

Notwithstanding that my 2C openings show more quick tricks than losers (I can make game opposite a balanced yarborough (therefore responder's hand has trump support even if it has 12 losers)) or the 2C shows a balanced 22+ hcp and the 2NT rebid can be passed, I would NEVER pass a 2C opener because I could not bear to remove the pleasure of making that bid from my partner, whatever their skill level etc. 

Keeping your pard happy about his actions and yours is what it is all about. 

Bridge, THE PARTNERship game. 

Pleasure? I hate opening 2♣. It's often a real challenge to identify the best contract. The hand in question is a case in point, I suppose.

Having to open a variety of strong hands 2♣ is the price you pay to play weak twos. I'm willing to pay it, but it gives me no pleasure.

Then I guess it's lucky that they don't come up too often......lol.

I guess I may have a masochistic bent but seeing a bland 9 count rarely gets me going while a shapely 23 hcp hand is always a joyous harbinger of things to come ( to hell with the eventual result).

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Jun 20 2005, 06:18 PM, said:

sceptic, on Jun 20 2005, 02:13 PM, said:

if you are going to be quite so opinionated, please use your proper ID

Not sure you are refering too..

I am pretty sure he was referring to the post by "SoTired", which stated:

"For me, the subject of this thread is correct: "...the idiot passes" and since they said it, I think I can repeat it without a violation.

Only an idiot would pass an artificial, near game-force 2C opener.
.........
"

And then he goes on with other quite strong claims.

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Jun 20 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

The value of a pass can easily be shown by putting this hand opposite:
♠ J53
♥ T
D T975
♣ T9832

AKQxxxx
Axx
AKQ

With 7S cold you are likely going off in 2C. Great pass! End of story.

Only 22 HCP, I probavbly would open tht only with 1♠ :-P

[Fluffy]

Reading TheoKole's tale have reminded one of the sadest hands I've played.

It was 7 years ago, I played for the first time my aunt, it was the first board of a 2 seassons tourney, I held:

Scoring: MP

N - E - S - W
1♦-ps-1♥-ps
1♠-ps-2♣*-ps
2NT-ps-4NT**-ps
5♥-ps-7♣-ps
....

---

2♣*= althou 3♣ is the natural bid I prefered to take some contrtol due to the extrra strtenght.
4NT**= One of the very few things we had agreed was that 4NT always was blackwood cos she was afraid of missunderstandings, I would had never though I would enjoy of that situation.... in fact I didn't after all.

After I bid 7♣ opponents got his passes from the table to the bidding box, but my partner didn't, it took her 2 or 3 long minutes where I was thinking: Oh well she might have ♥Q and 7NT is cold then, maybe she realises the value of the card.

While she was thinking: My poor nephew is only 18 years old, he doen't know how to play this game, hwo can I let him play a grand slam?. I probably should not let him fall, our best spot is that I play the hand in 7NT.

So she bid 7NT, and went 1 off even when ♥Q was onside but 4th. I am veryproud of my reaction of stating nothing at all, it was first board of 52 to be played so better stay calm and don't break partnerships (althou I for the first and only time in my life felt to stand up and leave, maybe if I had had driving licence....).

Maybe saying no word was not a good idea, on second season I oipened 1♥ and she finished playing another 7NT with 3♥ in her hand were 7♥ was cold and 7NT scored -50, I decided to not play with her again on my life, but 7 years had passed and I played again a couple months ago

[FrancesHinden]

There are two different debates going on here.

1. Is it ever right to pass a forcing bid on purpose?

Well, that's a matter of partnership style not absolute morals. For some people forcing = forcing, don't pass unless you've made a grotesque psyche (if you're just rather light, please don't pass). For others, forcing only means that partner thinks his hand is worth a forcing bid based on what you've shown so far, if you don't have it then you can pass (such as the 1S - 1NT - 3D auction discussed, or the often-quoted Woolsey 1C-1S-2H auction).

The short answer for me is that if partner doesn't want you to pass forcing bids, then don't. Also, if you don't have exceptionally good judgement, then don't.

(I don't do it any more. Every time I did it in the past I have got a bad result, every time I didn't do it when I was tempted I have got a good result. Playless games make quite often.)

2. If your partnership allows the odd pass, should you ever pass a 2C opening?

I think the answer to this is no. Not for issues of partnership trust (we've addressed that in Q1 above), but because I simply CANNOT construct a hand where there is a better expected score from passing the 2C bid than from bidding. If I could, then why shouldn't I pass on it?

If partner is a cretin with no bidding judgement that might be different, but why am I playing with him/her in that case?

[inquiry]

FrancesHinden, on Jun 21 2005, 11:19 AM, said:

1. Is it ever right to pass a forcing bid on purpose?


2. If your partnership allows the odd pass, should you ever pass a 2C opening?


If partner is a cretin with no bidding judgement that might be different, but why am I playing with him/her in that case?

I guess I am a cretin. Because as I said in this post in this thread http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=73894, I can imagine a situation where I would pass partners forcing 2♣ opening bid.

Now, don't agree with it if you want, but I stand by what I said. In that extremely rare sitution, needing a top, I might very well take a swing for a matchpoint top. The conditions have to be perfect for me to do this. Type of score (matchpoints only), stage of the event (very late), need for a top -- average or average plus will not do (desperate), quality of hand (very weak), legnth in clubs (very long).

Is this bridge? Passing partner's forcing 2♣ where he might have 12 tricks in his hand? No, but who ever said matchpoints was bridge. If he has sure 12 tricks, bidding the slam would be AVERAGE... and the condition I set up, average doesn't help. This pass of a forcing 2♣ will create a much needed swing ... sure it will go against you anytime your partner can make something other than clubs, but if clubs is the right contract, you may have just gotten your top. Imagine, for instance a hand like this...

S-xx H-Jx D-xx C-Jxxxxxxx

Partner opens 2♣ and you need a cold top, last hand of the event. IF you bid 2♦, you will not be able to play 3♣. So with this hand, at matchpoints, needing a top, very late in the event, I would pass. At imps, rubber, or matchpoint under any other condition, I would make my negative bid (whatever it is) and not pass....

So, as I said in my first post, passing forcing 2♣ is not a good thing to do, and my rule is NEVER do it. However, like all rules, there can be exceptional circumstances where breaking the rules makes sense. This is the circumstances where I would break this one.

Cretins of the world-unite... :-)

[Blofeld]

To be fair, Ben, Frances said that things might be different (i.e. it might be worth considering passing 2♣) if partner (i.e. the 2♣ opener) were a cretin.

[SoTired]

inquiry, on Jun 21 2005, 10:47 AM, said:

I guess I am a cretin. Because as I said in this post in this thread http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?sho...indpost&p=73894, I can imagine a situation where I would pass partners forcing 2♣ opening bid.

Oh, Ben. This is unfair. You are a good bridge player. You have theorized the once-in-a-blue-moon scenario where passing a 2C opener might make sense. The original poster passed an ordinary 5♣ zero-count (I think, I am not looking it up again). Do you want to advise your students, "There are some situations where you might want to pass a 2C opener. Use your own judgement."?

[inquiry]

SoTired, on Jun 21 2005, 12:51 PM, said:

Do you want to advise your students, "There are some situations where you might want to pass a 2C opener. Use your own judgement."?

No one is crazy enough to want to try to learn from me... :-)

I have, admiittedly, distorted views of biddings. Very little original ideas (but then who does?), but very stong views on what the "right" options are for me (and will freely admit what works for me will probalby not work for everyone). I steal heavily from Robson/Segal, ETM victory, Mishovnbg, and Chris Ryall.

But back the point of this hand. I freely admit passing 2♣ is not something that be done, but I also point out that sometimes, we all do things we know that is wrong if we think, in the condition at hand, it gives us the best (legal) chance to win. What I would hope to do for any student is try to teach them to think... and in the process, what to think about....

Ben

[FrancesHinden]

You didn't read my post carefully enough (as Blofeld says) - I said passing 2C is more likely to be right if PARTNER is the cretin whom you can't trust to have a sensible post-2C auction with. If you're going to be guessing later in the auction you may as well guess now instead.

Mind you, if I held the hand you suggested and I needed an outright top in a matchpoint event I wouldn't pass 2C. Now we're getting into the realms of obscure hypotheses (I've never yet BEEN in an event where I knew I needed an outright top - not an avge plus - at one particular board, presumably the last).

Here's why: Most of the time when I'm playing pairs I believe that my partner & I are better than the "field average"* . In particular, I think we have better judgement after opening 2C and I think we are better declarer players (at least my usual partners are bloody good at declaring & I'll probably be dummy after a 2C opener). So when partner opens 2C the last thing I'll do is something strange, because I believe that my matchpoint expectation is very high to start with. I'd rather have a balanced 13 count and hear partner open a strong NT - now I could pass to shoot for a top on the offchance that they have 5 cashers or similar.

*this doesn't apply next week!

[mike777]

Amazing in only 9 days we have over 2600 hits and 11 pages of comments on passing an opening bid of 2clubs. If this topic is this hot, how many more pages to learn the rest of basic bridge and I can start playing?

[Free]

mike777, on Jun 21 2005, 11:08 PM, said:

Amazing in only 9 days we have over 2600 hits and 11 pages of comments on passing an opening bid of 2clubs. If this topic is this hot, how many more pages to learn the rest of basic bridge and I can start playing?

Lol, I can summarize this thread in a few simple words: "keep your partnership healty, or start passing ANY forcing bid"...

[Al_U_Card]

Just shows that we probably have too much free time...........For me, it is wrong-headed to justify a patently anti-partnership action notwithstanding any perceived "state of the match" or "value of your hand" considerations.

I once kibbed a hi-level swiss game where they went for 1400 and then tried to swing the match on the last 2 hands. Unfortunately, at comparison, the opps went for 1700 on that hand and the last 2 boards cost them the match.

btw, cretin is defined as someone who due to thyroid deficiency in infancy is severely physically and mentally retarded.......

[rigour6]

1) Thanks for a hilarious thread.

2) I think the joke goes something like this:
Inspector: Were you there when the gentleman died?
Butler: No sir, I was in the adjoining room, I could hear everything but couldn't see.
Inspector: What did you hear?
Butler: I heard "2 Clubs, pass, pass, pass, bang! bang! bang!"

3) Whatever you gain on passing 2 Clubs, you will almost certainly lose in your partner's concentration over the next few hands as he thinks, "what the hell?" and his terrifying uncertainty the next time he picks up a 2 club hand.

4) Partner may have game in his hand and only be waiting for you to let him know if there's a slam.

5) The bigger point:
Pass in this situation reveals a nearly complete narcissism in that you are "captaining" the hand in a situation you have absolutely no right to.
In any auction, information is exchanged until one person has enough to make a decision or to pose the key question to the other person.
In some auctions that's obvious, many 1 NT openings for example, make responder the captain. In other auctions it's not, but a) never assume you are the person captaining, and b ) never grab the captaincy when it clearly belongs to your partner.

This is what the understanding of balancing is all about.

I give another example:

You open 3 diamonds
Pass
Pass
3 Hearts

What do you do now? Well, with many many hands, the answer is obvious: Pass.
Why? Because presumably your 3 diamonds opening gave p a very good picture of your hand, and since he knows what you have and you don't know what he has, why not let the partner with the better knowledge make the decision?


6) So in summary, this is not the answer for experts, and if you have a partnership understanding that could survive or even welcome 2 clubs - pass, then great.
But for most beginning and intermediate players, 2 clubs - pass is like pouring acid on the foundations, you are saying "partner, I can't trust you" and, more damaging still, "partner, you can't trust me." You are inviting your partner to abandon your bidding system on very little provocation, and that will invite a kind of free flow bidding which is no communicative, effective, relaxing, accurate, or enjoyable.

It's Ok to want to take big risks, but the purpose of bidding is to make them calculated risks. A risk taken without information is not a calculated one.

[rigour6]

inquiry, on Jun 21 2005, 11:56 AM, said:

SoTired, on Jun 21 2005, 12:51 PM, said:

Do you want to advise your students, "There are some situations where you might want to pass a 2C opener. Use your own judgement."?

No one is crazy enough to want to try to learn from me... :-)


What I would hope to do for any student is try to teach them to think... and in the process, what to think about....

Ben

1) If my partner has got so much on the ball mentally that they can devote brain power to this question in an auction, why did they devote so little of it into choosing a partner such that they ended up with me?

2) Every 10 seconds my partner spends in contemplation of this scenario at the table takes approximately a month from my expected lifespan.

3) Have you ever had that discussion with your wife where you broke the established rule because there was a special circumstance? How did that work out for you? Do you really want to pay the price of a) having every sin in the future compared to this one? b ) having her do far worse things and then claim they were Ok by analogy?

Even if you can keep the volume down, I think your life would be better served by having the shared story of "the time we would have won it all if only p had passed my 2 club opener" than "let me tell you about the time my p passed my 2 clubs and we went from 2nd place to 15th on the last board."

[rigour6]

Well, I just learned something I didn't know (about "cretins"), and was reminded of something I wish I didn't need to be (that in written bulletin board postings, it's awfully easy for things to degenerate, whereas in person, tone of voice and facial expression allows people to stay on topic and avoid unthinkingly offending each other).

[FrancesHinden]

Sorry.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Jun 13 2005, 02:02 PM, said:

I opened a strong club once and passed 1D with 2272 15 count Pard had 7 hearts lol

I once held a 1822 2 count. We had this auction with me as responder:
1♣ (16+) 1♦ (0-7)
1♥ (20+) 1♠ (0-4)
And as I was planning to start bidding a lot of hearts now, partner passed on a 5233 20 count. BOO!