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Bridge hand question question

#1 User is offline   DG15 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 11:21

East opened 1D.
I overcalled 1NT
which ended the auction. Was my bid correct?
I went 3 down

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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 11:28

Hi welcome to the Forums!

Don't like 1N, but some would make the call.

If they bid spades I can usually double later and if they land in another suit I'm happy to defend.
Hi y'all!

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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 11:40

Your choices appear to have been:

1. Pass and hope to be able to enter the auction later....typically you are hoping to hear LHO bid 1 and RHO to bid either 2 or 1N: in either case, you double, showing the other suits and (especially over 1N) diamonds. problem: any time you delay your entry, you allow the opps to exchange more info, thus they go 'right' more often than over an immediate entry, and, especially if they bid and raise spades, you are forcing to the 3-level.

2. 1N: right on everything but spade length. Unfortunately, this is a potentially huge issue, since partner will/should transfer you to spades with almost any 5 card holding and your hand will disappoint...plus other potential issues, such as partner doubling a spade bid by LHO counting on you holding at least xx, or the opps running spades on you, and so on. The 'good news' is that it gets you into the auction quickly...the bad news is that you may not belong in the auction.

3. 1: whether this is palatable depends in part on style and in part on spots in the suit...if I held KJ98, I'd certainly bid 1. It has the advantage of getting into the auction, and doesn't deny this kind of strength....it may allow us to find a good fit....and we have relatively easy rebids over most calls partner may make.

Whether one would want to bid with KJxx is a matter of taste.

I'm not entirely sure which I prefer, knowing as I do the result of one of the actions, but I would in any event rank 1N as the least attractive....I'm pretty sure I'd bid 1 rather than pass, since I really don't like the idea of having to double 2.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#4 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 11:42

I strongly dislike both 1NT and 1. Like Phil I'm happy to pass and either double spades for takeout or defend if they don't bid spades since that means my partner has them.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#5 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 11:58

DG15, on Dec 30 2009, 12:21 PM, said:

East opened 1D.
I overcalled 1NT
which ended the auction. Was my bid correct?
I went 3 down

Calls are never really "correct" or "incorrect" they are either percentage or antipercentage :mellow: because in bridge the "wrong" call is sometimes rewarded and the "right" call is sometimes punished. Back to your 1NT call; it is within the normal overcall range for a direct seat 1NT but IMO the singleton makes it an anti%age call I would either pass or bid 1 with a preference for the latter.
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#6 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 16:43

If partner has five spades, he'll take out your 1NT into a 5-1 fit. If partner has less than five spades, you probably have a fit in hearts or clubs which you can find if you wait for them to bid spades and then double.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 18:55

nigel_k, on Dec 30 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

If partner has five spades, he'll take out your 1NT into a 5-1 fit. If partner has less than five spades, you probably have a fit in hearts or clubs which you can find if you wait for them to bid spades and then double.


The problem with pass is that partner will have what he usually holds when you pass (a flattish 10-12 count with too many diamonds to double, and not enough to bid 1N), and you'll collect 150 or 200 out of 1 when you're making game.

Axxx, AQx, J10x, xxx or similar for example
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#8 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 18:59

Cyberyeti, on Dec 30 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Dec 30 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

If partner has five spades, he'll take out your 1NT into a 5-1 fit. If partner has less than five spades, you probably have a fit in hearts or clubs which you can find if you wait for them to bid spades and then double.


The problem with pass is that partner will have what he usually holds when you pass (a flattish 10-12 count with too many diamonds to double, and not enough to bid 1N), and you'll collect 150 or 200 out of 1 when you're making game.

Axxx, AQx, J10x, xxx or similar for example

And why would partner pass out 1 with that hand? And is that really your biggest concern, that LHO has a yarbrough, RHO has a minimum, and partner has the most he is likely to have?
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#9 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-December-30, 22:33

I never thought I'd sound so old but... people really don't pass enough.
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#10 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 04:20

jdonn, on Dec 30 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

Cyberyeti, on Dec 30 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Dec 30 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

If partner has five spades, he'll take out your 1NT into a 5-1 fit. If partner has less than five spades, you probably have a fit in hearts or clubs which you can find if you wait for them to bid spades and then double.


The problem with pass is that partner will have what he usually holds when you pass (a flattish 10-12 count with too many diamonds to double, and not enough to bid 1N), and you'll collect 150 or 200 out of 1 when you're making game.

Axxx, AQx, J10x, xxx or similar for example

And why would partner pass out 1 with that hand? And is that really your biggest concern, that LHO has a yarbrough, RHO has a minimum, and partner has the most he is likely to have?

Partner would pass with the hand I gave because he has the wrong shape for a takeout double, and no ruffs to take in a 4-3 heart fit where you're very likely to end up, and it's embarrassing to protect with 1N and have the opener cash 6 or 7 diamonds opposite partner's 4423 9 count. Pass is routine with that sort of hand.

11 opposite 2 is not that unlikely for the opponents.

I profit from people passing hands like the OP's all the time given some of the rubbish I open on. What are you going to do when the auction goes 1-P-2-P-P ? 4 could easily be on (as little as xxxxx, AQxx, x, xxx gives it play), but if you give him a chance, partner will bid spades, and possibly lots of them if you reopen.

I would overcall 1 and rebid 1N (15-18) over partner's expected spade. We WJO on bad hands so 1 over 1 is a reasonable hand (non exclusive overcall also so bad opening hand +) and will get a response almost all the time a 1 opening bid would have done.
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#11 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 06:26

Hi,

well, I think 1NT is ok, but I would not have choosen it.
The alternatives are X, 1H or Pass.
I think X is not an option, since you are dead, if p bids 1S or 2S,
after 1S, you still can pass, but after 2S you have trapped yourself.

1H is ok, it would be nice to know, if your suit would be something
like KJTx, in which case it may be best.

But you can always Pass, the "Wait and See" strategy is not the worst
strategy.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#12 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 06:32

Cyberyeti, on Dec 30 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Dec 30 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

If partner has five spades, he'll take out your 1NT into a 5-1 fit. If partner has less than five spades, you probably have a fit in hearts or clubs which you can find if you wait for them to bid spades and then double.


The problem with pass is that partner will have what he usually holds when you pass (a flattish 10-12 count with too many diamonds to double, and not enough to bid 1N), and you'll collect 150 or 200 out of 1 when you're making game.

Axxx, AQx, J10x, xxx or similar for example

Well, if partner is in 4th seat, he can make a 1NT overcall.

There are various styles out there, but a common one is, that a 1NT overcall
in 4th seat showes 11-14, and does not necessarily promise a stopper.
So the hand you gave is not an really good one, even if you pass, you have
lots of chance to survive and reach whatever game you may have.
And if you dont like 1NT, ... 1S is also not the worst bid partner can find in 4th
seat.

And by the way: If you reach every making game, I would like to play against
you, because I am sure I will win.
This is similar to the player, who never gets psyched playing Poker, sometimes
they get you, and to win in the long run, it is important to accept, that they get
you once in a while.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#13 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 07:05

Cyberyeti, on Dec 31 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

Partner would pass with the hand I gave because he has the wrong shape for a takeout double, and no ruffs to take in a 4-3 heart fit where you're very likely to end up, and it's embarrassing to protect with 1N and have the opener cash 6 or 7 diamonds opposite partner's 4423 9 count. Pass is routine with that sort of hand.

I'd protect with 1NT on the hand you gave (Axxx, AQx, J10x, xxx). In the unlikely event that they have six or seven diamonds to cash, 1 is making, presumably. And partner may not pass 1NT anyway.

Quote

11 opposite 2 is not that unlikely for the opponents.

Really? It sounds pretty unlikely to me.

Quote

I profit from people passing hands like the OP's all the time given some of the rubbish I open on. What are you going to do when the auction goes 1-P-2-P-P ?

I'd bid 2, showing a reasonable hand with only four hearts, unsuitable for a takeout double on the previous round. My likely shapes are this one, and x4x5. Whilst I'm quite strong for this action, I don't think I'll miss many games this way. I'd certainly expect partner to raise with xxxxx AQxx x xxx.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#14 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 10:16

Cyberyeti I can't get into an argument like this again with someone, almost everything you said is LOL. Trust me.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#15 User is offline   Old York 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 10:57

Welcome!

Occasionally going 3 down is not a disaster, at least it proves that you are trying.
The big disasters are 1NT+3 and 3+2 etc

Dont worry about it :)

Tony

Edit:
I found the hand and noticed that your opponents had an easy vulnerable game
One table even scored 1480 in 4xx+1
You were very unlucky to find your partner with nothing useful
Hanging on in quiet desperation, is the English way (Pink Floyd)
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 12:17

Cyberyeti, on Dec 31 2009, 05:20 AM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 30 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

Cyberyeti, on Dec 30 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Dec 30 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

If partner has five spades, he'll take out your 1NT into a 5-1 fit. If partner has less than five spades, you probably have a fit in hearts or clubs which you can find if you wait for them to bid spades and then double.


The problem with pass is that partner will have what he usually holds when you pass (a flattish 10-12 count with too many diamonds to double, and not enough to bid 1N), and you'll collect 150 or 200 out of 1 when you're making game.

Axxx, AQx, J10x, xxx or similar for example

And why would partner pass out 1 with that hand? And is that really your biggest concern, that LHO has a yarbrough, RHO has a minimum, and partner has the most he is likely to have?

Partner would pass with the hand I gave because he has the wrong shape for a takeout double, and no ruffs to take in a 4-3 heart fit where you're very likely to end up, and it's embarrassing to protect with 1N and have the opener cash 6 or 7 diamonds opposite partner's 4423 9 count. Pass is routine with that sort of hand.

11 opposite 2 is not that unlikely for the opponents.

I profit from people passing hands like the OP's all the time given some of the rubbish I open on. What are you going to do when the auction goes 1-P-2-P-P ? 4 could easily be on (as little as xxxxx, AQxx, x, xxx gives it play), but if you give him a chance, partner will bid spades, and possibly lots of them if you reopen.

I would overcall 1 and rebid 1N (15-18) over partner's expected spade. We WJO on bad hands so 1 over 1 is a reasonable hand (non exclusive overcall also so bad opening hand +) and will get a response almost all the time a 1 opening bid would have done.

While I am an advocate of 1, your post almost makes me change my mind :P

I found your statement that 11 v 2 for the opponents would not be unusual questionable, so I ran a simulation of 200 hands, using 11-21 for opener, not a balanced 15-17, and no 5 card majors, with diamonds always equal to or longer than clubs.

There were 19 hands on which responder held 0, 1 or 2 hcp...on none of them was opener an 11 count.

I was cautious in assessing partner's tendency to reopen...when in doubt, I made him pass. There were 5 hands out of 200 on which the auction would, I think, die in 1 and we missed a game once.

There were 19 hands on which responder held a 3 count, and opener held 11 twice...but partner had a balance. Only on 3 of the 19 did it appear that 1 would be the final contract, and we did not seem to have missed a game. I didn't check to see how partials played...even tho it is a quiet Decemeber 31, I only have so much time to waste :P

BTW, postulating that 4th chair may have Axxx AQx J10x xxx (nice touch...that diamond 10) and pass...rather than 1N or double...either of which would attract significant expert support imo... is very disingenuous. We can all come up with hands to justify any call we make in any auction....but the point is to assess frequency and size of gain/loss on the range of forseeable hands, rather than to identify particular holdings, and particular actions with those holdings, that will lead to loss.

I still prefer 1...but not for the reasons you gave. My concern is that I'd rather get in now than have to bid later...or have to pass later...but I do so recognizing that this action will prove inferior to pass then (maybe) double on many hands.
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#17 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 12:28

Since digging up hands is rather easy: Sticks and Wheels in 1N

1N was unfortunate, but many of us will be taking a nice hot bath at the three level if we pass, our RHO raises to 2, we now double and our LHO decides to go headhunting.
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#18 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 13:00

Phil, on Dec 31 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

Since digging up hands is rather easy: Sticks and Wheels in 1N

1N was unfortunate, but many of us will be taking a nice hot bath at the three level if we pass, our RHO raises to 2, we now double and our LHO decides to go headhunting.

Ha! A triumph for the 1 overcall!

I knew it! This hand is conclusive evidence!

B) :huh: :P :P
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#19 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 13:12

mikeh, on Dec 31 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

Phil, on Dec 31 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

Since digging up hands is rather easy: Sticks and Wheels in 1N

1N was unfortunate, but many of us will be taking a nice hot bath at the three level if we pass, our RHO raises to 2, we now double and our LHO decides to go headhunting.

Ha! A triumph for the 1 overcall!

I knew it! This hand is conclusive evidence!

B) :huh: :P :P

Well broken-even :)
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#20 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-December-31, 14:04

jdonn, on Dec 31 2009, 08:12 PM, said:

Well broken-even :P

Probably. After

  1 pass 1 pass
  2 dbl

RHO will probably just bid 4. If, on the other hand, he decides to redouble, we're in a certain amount of difficulty.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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