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What is the purpose of this forum? Apologies in advance for the rant

#1 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 01:55

Over the past year and a half I have posted 24 cases of 100% replicable bidding issues with GIB, all with straightforward bidding sequences which will likely reoccur (and in some cases have even popped up in my own hands more than once) - as opposed to highly competitive auctions or freak hands. (I'm not counting a 25th where GIB held a strong 7-6 hand).

One of these where GIB passed a cuebid was apparently reported numerous times during a survivor tournament and was quickly fixed.

One was recently one of the major changes mentioned in the release notes, regarding responses to cuebid raises - this just affected bidding descriptions and not the actual bidding, and the fix wasn't tested as it quickly resulted in another, even worse, bug.

Three more I can no longer replicate, though received no official replies and no mentioned of the fixes in release notes, so it's hard to know whether they were specifically fixed due to the report. At least 2 occurred in daylongs (can't remember about the third), so may have been reported en masse there.

19 still occur today.

These include my first, from June 2016, where GIB stops short of game with 12 points opposite a natural 2NT overcall, where Fred himself commented and said he'd make sure the programmers take a close look at it.

The fact that GIB passes 1 - 2 - 3 but describes it as forcing has gone ignored since August 2016.

jdonn mentioned a change needed to be made in this auction in October last year. It still needs to be made.

jdonn commented on GIB mishandling bids after takeout doubles, promising a 6 card suit when only having 4, saying the programmers were working on it. I've seen someone else post on it since; they've obviously still working on it a year later.

jdonn confirmed they were aware of issues with balancing 1NT overcalls last January, but nothing was done.

jdonn also said he'd report a bug where GIB stopped short of game with 4 points opposite a balanced 22-24 back in January, without result. Without even realising, the same thing happened to me again a few months later.

Also in January there was the odd case of GIB promising 4 spades with 3, showing 18 points when it held 13, cuebidding an Ace it didn't have, and then stopping short of game. jdonn said he'd hope fixing an early bug would resolve the rest. None were fixed.

GIB's cheaper minor bug has been reported by several people without response.

We've got GIB bidding a side suit at the 5 level rather than show a 10 card fit; a previously fixed bug with bar bids resurface, a completely undescribed cuebid, a passout with a standard 1 opener, a passed cuebid, a passing forcing redouble resulting in a 0-1 trump fit, broken descriptions after a takeout double, a passed game try, passing a takeout double with nothing (twice), and finally stopping at game despite getting a perfect blackwood response.

Granted, the last few occurred recently, and maybe haven't been read yet. Given others were read and not sorted more than a year ago, I'm not holding my breath.

So, given BBO clearly don't have resources to read or fix these bug reports, or want any help in getting such resources, is there any purpose in this forum (other than amusement value)?
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#2 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 04:21

I completely agree, smerriman. I'm not a GIB user, but it does not take much to work out from all the posts on here about GIB there is something seriously wrong. Add to this, on a different note, the problems with the iPad compatibility and lots of other issues with BBO generally, and I'm afraid that BBO is just losing the plot, I feel. Which is sad.

I don't know how BBO is run, or the revenue streams it generates, but if it really wants to be the biggest and best bridge site in the world it needs a total overhaul. At the moment it is failing on so many levels, in my view.

We are perhaps grateful for the brilliant software that makes it possible to play bridge with anyone in the world. But having done that, I feel BBO is perhaps resting too much on its laurels, unaware of the undercurrent of mixed emotions that players feel when they're not being listed to.

I am fully aware of the difficulties here, and when I recently posted "A Impassioned Plea to BBO Forum Members" that was my own personal gripe about the lack of enthusiasm that occurs when players - people generally - become disinterested in an organisation because it fails to support the people who enable it to exist - i.e. the customers, or in BBO's case, the players.

What makes it perhaps more bizarre is that one of the owners (according to Wikipedia) is none other than Microsoft owner, Bill Gates, a bridge player himself, so you would think that GIB, and for that matter BBO, would have the some of the best technical support and commercial expertise in the world.
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 05:43

IMO, BBO is amazing in the quality and range of its facilities. It has pioneered many entertaining and instructive features. Most of them are free. Hence, it feels churlish and ungrateful to look a gift-horse in the mouth.

I agree with Smerriman, however, that the ship is in danger of being spoilt for a ha'porth of tar. For example...
  • Brilliant innovations like Full Disclosure and Chat-recording seem to have atrophied in the transition to the web-verson. Surely, it can't be too hard to resuscitate these.
  • GIB has its faults but can still beat most of its customers. If GIB were better integrated with FD, it could play more systems with fewer mistakes; it would be able to understand its opponents' FD defined systems. It would still need to rely on heuristics to cope with lacunae in FD specifications. However, as FD specifications improve, GIB would have less scope for error. GIB's play-faults are harder to remedy.
  • BBO has grown so fast, it has become a bit fragmented and inconsistent. It might benefit from more standardisation. e.g. HTML5 equivalents rather than Flash. Also, BBO seems to support different LIN formats for different purposes. A single standard format, similar to that used in BBF but slightly expanded, might reduce programming effort.
  • Outsiders have offered to help improve different aspects of BBO. Hence, perhaps, BBO should open-source some of its software. Failing that, BBO could define interfaces onto which selected outsiders could bolt on new facilities. In particular a robot-interface could permit the use of Jack or WBridge5 (perhaps, at a price)

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#4 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 06:44

View Postnige1, on 2017-November-21, 05:43, said:

IMO, BBO is amazing in the quality and range of its facilities. It has pioneered many entertaining and instructive features. Most of them are free. Hence, it feels ungrateful to look a gift-horse in the mouth.

I agree with Smerriman, however, that the ship is in danger of being spoilt for a ha'porth of tar.


I couldn't agree more, Nige1, but as a former insolvency analyst myself it is doing what plenty of good businesses do that come unstuck later, namely concentrating on the periphery rather than the core. The all- singing, all-dancing aspects of BBO are amazing, but players have to have confidence to use BBO in the first instance. It doesn't matter how many trendy add-ons you incorporate, basically if something as important as GIB is faulty, then players are going to shy away from using it. BBO isn't going to go broke but it's probably losing customer base because of its faults, including those ones beyond GIB too.
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#5 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 09:57

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-November-21, 04:21, said:

I completely agree, smerriman. I'm not a GIB user, but it does not take much to work out from all the posts on here about GIB there is something seriously wrong. Add to this, on a different note, the problems with the iPad compatibility and lots of other issues with BBO generally, and I'm afraid that BBO is just losing the plot, I feel. Which is sad.

I don't know how BBO is run, or the revenue streams it generates, but if it really wants to be the biggest and best bridge site in the world it needs a total overhaul. At the moment it is failing on so many levels, in my view.

We are perhaps grateful for the brilliant software that makes it possible to play bridge with anyone in the world. But having done that, I feel BBO is perhaps resting too much on its laurels, unaware of the undercurrent of mixed emotions that players feel when they're not being listed to.

I am fully aware of the difficulties here, and when I recently posted "A Impassioned Plea to BBO Forum Members" that was my own personal gripe about the lack of enthusiasm that occurs when players - people generally - become disinterested in an organisation because it fails to support the people who enable it to exist - i.e. the customers, or in BBO's case, the players.

What makes it perhaps more bizarre is that one of the owners (according to Wikipedia) is none other than Microsoft owner, Bill Gates, a bridge player himself, so you would think that GIB, and for that matter BBO, would have the some of the best technical support and commercial expertise in the world.







"...none other than Microsoft owner, Bill Gates, a bridge player himself,...)"

you can add that Warren Buffett has been one of his bridge partners for many years (From what I've read, Buffett is the stronger player)
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 12:43

Gib is so old and code described as "gibberish". Gib's programing language is from the 1980's and is undocumented. Accurately making any change is hard. It needs to be replaced.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 12:43

Gib is so old and code described as "gibberish". Gib's programing language is from the 1980's and is undocumented. Accurately making any change is hard. It needs to be replaced.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#8 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 14:37

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-November-21, 01:55, said:

Over the past year and a half I have posted 24 cases of 100% replicable bidding issues with GIB, all with straightforward bidding sequences which will likely reoccur (and in some cases have even popped up in my own hands more than once) - as opposed to highly competitive auctions or freak hands. (I'm not counting a 25th where GIB held a strong 7-6 hand).


Over the past few years, other forum members have probably posted many hundreds or thousands more of bidding (and play) issues, although many of those are probably due to the same bug. In addition, you can file bug reports directly to BBO. I don't know how many of those are submitted, but I think it could easily be in the tens of thousands a year, although many of those would be duplicates.

If the bugs reported keep on getting more difficult to fix and fixing one bug could create additional bugs, and the numbers are increasing faster than the programmers can fix them, the whole thing starts looking hopeless.
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#9 User is offline   zhasbeen 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 14:45

View Postjohnu, on 2017-November-21, 14:37, said:

Over the past few years, other forum members have probably posted many hundreds or thousands more of bidding (and play) issues, although many of those are probably due to the same bug. In addition, you can file bug reports directly to BBO. I don't know how many of those are submitted, but I think it could easily be in the tens of thousands a year, although many of those would be duplicates.

If the bugs reported keep on getting more difficult to fix and fixing one bug could create additional bugs, and the numbers are increasing faster than the programmers can fix them, the whole thing starts looking hopeless.


They'd better get going while they still have a good base. Somebody will surely come along and build a better mouse trap robot. Just ask OkBridge.
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#10 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 15:56

Just to clarify one thing, I think GIB is excellent, and I've learnt far more playing with GIB than humans online.

But if straightforward bugs reported here will go unfixed or unseen for years (was only looking at my own; there are unresolved bugs reported by others dating even further back), then BBO should really admit as much and close this forum, rather than promising things are being looked into when they're not.
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#11 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 16:47

People don't understand why John is saying Gib is very difficult to change without creating other problems. Gib is 60 years old written in a language which is undocumented and nobody uses anymore.

Gib just doesn't fix itself.
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#12 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 18:07

Exaggerations much? AFAIK Gib was written in C, which is still reasonably common? The issue is mainly the bidding database, which is in a homebrew invented format specialized for bridge, but hard to read and maintain, probably designed for compactness when memory was at far more a premium than it is now nearly 20 years later.

That said, I agree with the general sentiment that it is discouraging when reported bugs are still unfixed years later. I do wonder if they opened up the bidding db to the community, with some documentation on the language, if collectively we could speed things along. There are a fair number of us out there with both a decent amount of bridge expertise and software engineering experience/CS degrees who might be able to pitch in effectively. Of course up to BBO to determine if they think we would on net help speed dev, or OTOH drain their time explaining things to us, accurately merging/testing our contributions, managing an open-source project. Some 5 years ago fred/barmar said they clearly decided no to open source, but I don't know if they are satisfied with the speed of progress and might change their minds. Clearly a lot of users are not satisfied.
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#13 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 18:57

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-November-21, 18:07, said:

Exaggerations much? AFAIK Gib was written in C, which is still reasonably common? The issue is mainly the bidding database, which is in a homebrew invented format specialized for bridge, but hard to read and maintain, probably designed for compactness when memory was at far more a premium than it is now nearly 20 years later.
.

Written in C. Why do they call it gibberish.
Bidding database can be rewritten/converted fairly easily to a new format .


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#14 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 22:44

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-November-21, 18:57, said:

Written in C. Why do they call it gibberish.
Bidding database can be rewritten/converted fairly easily to a new format .


I don't know anything about the GIB database, but if it was easy, I assume it would have been done already. The problem is that bridge bidding rules are very complex and very context dependent. Humans cope by having meta rules and general principles to interpret unknown bids. GIB doesn't do that, or there are so few rules that they are useless.
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#15 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 10:30

Let me answer to a few of these things.

I certainly can (and will) start checking this GIB forum on a more regular basis. But by far, the main method I use to get GIB bugs is the robot report function. That creates an email, and I take the ones I think the programmer should work on and forward them to him with a suggestion of what GIB should actually do. I also to a smaller extent use this forum, private messages to me, and things I discover myself. I was checking this more often, but I got sick of some of the rudeness frankly. I may not respond to threads with mocking like LOL or insults like calling GIB an idiot, but otherwise I will respond.

I can certainly understand the frustration that it seems like things take years to get fixed, if ever. I can't say anything that will make that better. But I can promise one thing. Ever since I started with BBO in late 2014, every single one of those robot reports have been read and considered by me (and potentially others as well). That is usually 1-2 dozen per day, sometimes more. So over 3 years, I have read and considered something like 15-20 thousand of them. If we never got another report, I think we could work on GIB at least another 5 years just with what we have.

If I don't send a report to the programmer, it's probably for one of the following reasons:
- The report is very rude. I don't mind that someone is frustrated, but if it involves cursing and insults toward BBO, or me, or Fred, or whatever, I will ignore it immediately, without apology.
- In my opinion, the customer is wrong on the bridge issue about what GIB should do. I would estimate this is at least 25% of the robot reports. Some of the users simply don't understand bridge very well.
- The customer has created the type of auction we are never going to bother teaching GIB. A prime example is passing a forcing bid then coming back in later. Or opening 2NT with 9 clubs or something, then bidding clubs for all eternity later. GIB will never be taught to understand what to do after these types of bidding violations.
- Complaints GIB made a lead or play that didn't work, even though it wasn't proven wrong. (yes we get these plus the next kind)
- Complaints GIB made a lead or play that worked too well, therefore GIB is cheating and knows all the hands. (yes we get these plus the last kind)
- Complaints someone is losing too many finesses (we get these plenty. One of the angrier customers blew to QJ doubleton twice in one hand.)
- Their comment didn't match the hand they sent.
- They don't make a comment at all about the hand, and I can't immediately figure out what the complaint is. One particular user likes to simply say "tilt", and while I can appreciate he seems to be on perpetual tilt, I often have no idea why he sent the report. Often the customer didn't comment at all.
- And some are simply extraneous, complaints their computer froze, or other questions unrelated to GIB.

Once getting through all that, the IMO valid complaints are often issues that are already being worked on, known issues that are intended to be worked on down the road, or so major they will take a really major commitment to fix the problem (think pulling partner's double). If it's something I think the programmer can work on and make progress, I send it off to him.

I will also occasionally suggest those larger projects. Improving the point count method, takeout vs. penalty doubles, balancing. Frankly, I hope those can be worked on more often down the road, but I can't promise it. I was pretty proud that in a recent version, opening preempts were much better defined. I considered that a long-standing problem, and it took lots of testing and checking to make sure GIB's new preempting style ended up being reasonable. So there is hope that these larger issues can be worked on.

Last thing, I really doubt any open-source solution will ever occur. Sorry. Even if it was just up to me, I don't think it's a good idea.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#16 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 11:08

Is ignoring rude reports regardless of validity really the right thing to do? A bug is a bug. To me that is just being spiteful toward the bug reporter, but now you are also affecting thousands of other customers who weren't rude but would also really like the bug fixed. Bug report triage should have thick skin and ignore insults IMO.

Yes people should be less insulting, but it's due to frustration, a perception that other programs have been improving faster.
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#17 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 11:46

Had been planning to respond to smerriman's excellent post for some time. I think I want to respond to jdonn's post first.
Sadly, jdonn's post reflects arrogance - "I will not look at" "I will not tolerate" blah blah. I have been an EE Prof, experienced hardware and software engineer in very hi-tech industry. Instead of arrogance, you sift out the relevant and make your decisions about when/whether/how to fix which would be a professional attitude. How much more do you need to decide people are VERY frustrated with GIBidding and it seems normal they should vent. And this is exacerbated in MoneyBridge where money flows out and there is NO recourse or post-adjustment. This is like Verizon saying you gave us a rude review, we will not fix it. Nonsense. Be professional.

Started my MB journey about about Sep 2007. Since then 1300 or so emails to BBO support. ONCE, only ONCE, Udai Ivatury made a $10 adjustment otherwise just a canned response. ZERO recourse. After about 200+ such emails my language became rude and Obnoxious and diana_eva emailed me "we have ladies working for us". All my emails are in my email client. I was frustrated with the total lack of response from BBO about fixes. Of course some may not have been valid. I went cold turkey in 2013 except sporadically playing tournaments. Came back in May 2017 since stopped working. I will admit I felt GIBBO had improved but then slowly it seems to have regressed. I have admiration for GIBBO's play and leads are excellent even though it sometimes goes off the rails.

Defensive carding is abysmal. Some mixture of count and attitude which it violates at will. e.g. It has A53 I have KQx. Wins lead and play 5, declarer J i take q and now i am stuck. play back something else and they make.
Or suit preference when giving a ruff. NEVER. Sure things can be worked out somehow but suit pref has been around for ages and works. And I will present this gem from 9/4/08:

"As a bridge player (and sometimes rubber bridge player) who has played a lot of hands against GIB myself, I can certainly understand the frustration you have obviously experienced when your GIB partner's poor bridge decisions cost you money. That being said, your suggestion that BBO refund a substantial % of your entry fees in order to make up for this is very unfair to both BBO and to your opponents."

And there the matter rests

vrock
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#18 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 12:19

I agree jdonn shouldn't ignore rude bug reports, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect money bridge refunds. Your opponents are equally handicapped by unreliable bot partners, in the long run the net effect on your win rate should be zero. If you can't stand getting screwed by GIB from time to time, just quit, find another web site to play, stop playing money bridge, etc. You know the quality of GIB, yet you continue to play. If it is unacceptable quality to you, the normal thing to do is to stop being a customer.

As for defensive carding, you just have to accept that at this time GIB simply doesn't understand defensive signals, it's very difficult to implement properly. It will give attitude or count in some situations, but not suit pref, and won't interpret signalling from it's partner and defend accordingly.
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#19 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 13:47

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-November-22, 12:19, said:

I agree jdonn shouldn't ignore rude bug reports, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect money bridge refunds. Your opponents are equally handicapped by unreliable bot partners, in the long run the net effect on your win rate should be zero. If you can't stand getting screwed by GIB from time to time, just quit, find another web site to play, stop playing money bridge, etc. You know the quality of GIB, yet you continue to play. If it is unacceptable quality to you, the normal thing to do is to stop being a customer.

As for defensive carding, you just have to accept that at this time GIB simply doesn't understand defensive signals, it's very difficult to implement properly. It will give attitude or count in some situations, but not suit pref, and won't interpret signalling from it's partner and defend accordingly.


Mostly right Stephen. Given I am the only one complaining about MB AND there are thousands of complaints not related to MB, how many, besides me, would you ask to quit with the same arguments made for MB? That is the crux. Seems like a blanket "if you don't like it quit". Which is what BBO is relying on - if you don't like it quit and one day when our income - MB or otherwise - starts to go down, we'll address these issues. Seems like support for BBO's philosophy.

vrock
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#20 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 14:31

A lot of us would like faster progress, and are frustrated that GIB isn't better. But we are also realistic that it's a pretty tough job and do understand that they are working on it. Plus it's a lot cheaper and convenient than playing at the club, and the robots despite their craziness still are on average better than the average human opp, and it's very nice to be able to play any time and not have to arrange a human partner or/and opps to play at the same time, and have patient opps who never complain, never get up and leave, patiently wait while you hash out system issues with your human partner etc. So it's not anywhere near bad enough that we stop playing BBO entirely. We just report the bugs we encounter politely, hope for the best that they get fixed eventually, toss in a mild whine/rant every now and then.

But you are a little over the top with the insults and demands for refunds. So IMO take it down a notch or vote with your feet and stop feeding them your money if you aren't satisfied. If you continue to play it's implicit that the cost is low enough and the quality just quite good enough that you still think you are getting your money's worth. There are other sites and bots to play with.
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