[debussyl]

Suppose you play 2c strong opening, 2d response as waiting. Your 2c open means 22+ HCP or 9+ trick hand with good values.

Here are my questions:

1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?
2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?
3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?
4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?
5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?
6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

[Walddk]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 08:49 AM, said:

Suppose you play 2c strong opening, 2d response as waiting. Your 2c open means 22+ HCP or 9+ trick hand with good values.

Here are my questions:

1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?
2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?
3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?
4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?
5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?
6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

1. Yes.
2. No *)
3. Yes.
4. Yes, because I play this as "second negative" (0-3).
5. No, I may have a solid minor with stoppers in the other suits.
6. Rarely. I try not to make major adjustments to my game whether it's IMP or MP. But there are instances where especially NT looks very attractive at matchpoints.

*) With one partner it is forcing, showing 25+ balanced. We have 22-24 balanced among the options in our 2♦ opening.

Roland

[ArcLight]

>1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?

Yes, pard may be broke, and you will be set if you push onto game.

>2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?

No, you have shown a balanced 22-24 HCP hand (or 23-24, what ever range you use).

>3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?

Pard may be able to use the second negative bid of 3♦ (cheapest minor, cant use 3♣ as you bid that) to show a real bust. But for a 3♦ rebid by opener, you will have to discuss that. If pard is broke, its unlikely you will unilaterally make game.

>4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?

Its the 2nd negative, and shows an absolute bust. You will need to discuss this with pard.


>5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?

Not without the values. You may never be able to reach pards hand, hence never take a finesse. Even with 25 HCP, you wont be able to take advantage of AQT.

[vang]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 03:49 PM, said:

Suppose you play 2c strong opening, 2d response as waiting. Your 2c open means 22+ HCP or 9+ trick hand with good values.

Here are my questions:

1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?
2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?
3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?
4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?
5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?
6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

1. yes. since you defined 2C as 22+ HCP or 9+ trick, that cannot make game alone
2. no. it's 22-24.
3. yes. otherwise you'll have to jump and the bidding is already too crowded
4. yes. as i like to play, it doen't promise anything, just ask for 4 card major (you may rebid 3C with 5-6 clubs and a 4cm)
5. no. see kokish relay. 3NT show tricks, some sort of gambling but with outside stoppers.
6. don't think it's worth (2C is a rare bird).

kokish relay: http://www.bridgeguy...kishRelays.html

[kenberg]

This response is mostly whimsical, but perhaps there is a serious point buried in it somewhere.

Some 25 years ago I started playing duplicate. At first my partner and I bid according to the Goren style that I had learned playing social bridge as a grad student (stuff the kids in one room, get out the beer and deal the cards). But after a bit we decided that at least we had to ditch the strong two openings in all suits and open those hands with the artificial two clubs. We were driving to the club one evening and I mentioned that I had been looking into this and discovered that besides the passable rebid of two notrump there were other exit sequences. I offered to explain but partner said it sounded too complicated. I said, "OK then, unless I rebid two notrump, the two club opening is an absolute game force, right?"-- "Yes, that's what I would like."-- "OK".

Regratably I did not copy the hand down, but that night I got the only 30+ hcp hand I have ever held. The uncontested auction went:

2C-2D-3D-Pass for plus 190. Actually we got a few matchpoints since the hand does not make seven notrump and there are always a greedy few. Partner explained that he had a really really poor hand.


As I say, this note is for fun but perhaps a useful lesson is that if you have an agreement on this or anything else, partner will rely on you to follow it.

[hotShot]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 01:49 PM, said:

Suppose you play 2c strong opening, 2d response as waiting. Your 2c open means 22+ HCP or 9+ trick hand with good values.

Here are my questions:

1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?

If your partner hold 9+ tricks even xxx in a suit might make trick number 10 because e.g. opponents Q will now drop for sure, T9xx to partners QJ double can make 3NT save. Yes, you can pass but you need a good reason for it. You should listen what your partner has to tell you. That is why i don't like the 2♦ waiting response. Because it says absolutly nothing about your hand. I play 2♦ as 0-3, warning partner i might pass before game later. 2M is 5+ cards, 2[NT] shows a (semi)balanced hand.

Quote

2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?

No.

Quote

3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?

Yes, with your agreement it should be.

Quote

4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?

Your side wasted one bidding level to open strong, you lost another using a meaningless waiting bid and to show partners minor, you can't aford to waste another to jump if you are strong. You will miss 3NT then. So i think it should be forcing now. If you want to pass before game, at least pass your partners best suit.

Quote

5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?

Well it should show a hand where partner expects to get 9 tricks. He can do that with a good 6card suit and 3 side stopper. Would you call that a balanced hand?

Quote

6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

I would not advise this. Your judgement should not be bound to MP or IMPs.
If you want to react to this, just consider it if it's a close call.

[FrancesHinden]

I've noticed a difference in philosophy on different sides of the Atlantic.
As far as I understand it, the US style is to play 2C as not game forcing in various sequences. The UK style (or at least the style I play) is that a 2C opener is game forcing except that 2C-2D-2NT may be passed. So all other rebids by opener are game forcing. This is a relic of the old Acol 2 style, where with a strong but not FG hand you open two of your suit. Although I don't play Acol 2s any more, I find it's easier just to play 2C as absolutely game forcing after a suit rebid and play in the odd slightly aggressive game.

The meaning of 2C-2D-3NT depends on whether you play Kokish relay or not. If you don't, it shows about 25-27 balanced and is NF. If you have an even stronger balanced hand (and i've had one in my life) you rebid a suit to establish a game force.

[inquiry]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 09:49 AM, said:

Suppose you play 2c strong opening, 2d response as waiting. Your 2c open means 22+ HCP or 9+ trick hand with good values.

Here are my questions:
1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?

1. Two clubs is not game force. We know this easily because you might bid 2NT after 2D followed by all pass.

Quote

2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?

No. See above.

Quote

3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?

Yes. But a better question might be is your 2H or 2S bid forcing after a 2D response. The way you play, the answer would be yes, 2H/2S is forcing, since you promised nine tricks for the opoening bid. But maybe the answer you should consider a minor change to your response schedule. You should add an immediate 2H response by responder denies a trick. Call it double negative, instant double negative, whatever (I actually use 2H and 2S both as instant double negatives). This means a 2D bid promises one trick for a major contract. So on a really nasty respondign hand, the auction could go 2C-P-2H-all pass!!! This way if bad splits turn your 9 trick hand into 8, you still make. I promsie only 8 tricks (five controls) for my 2C opening when holding a major one suiter, my 2D response promises at least one likely trick for a major contract. A 2H bid denies a trick for hearts, a 2S response, promises 1 trick in a heart contract that would not be availalbe in spades (usually a spade ruff in hearts).

Quote

4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?

Yes.

Quote

5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?

Yes. I can force with 3C/3D, and of course, we already said above, 2H/2S is also one round force.

Quote

6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

The bids don't change meaning, but I will bid more aggressviely vul at imps, and try to stick to normal (not so aggressive bids) not vul. Also, I more likley to rebid 3NT than try 5 of a minor at notrump. But I don't think this is what you were asking.

[hrothgar]

Please note: I normally play Strong or 2 way club structures, so take anything that I say with a grain of salt...

>1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop
> short of a game, right?

Yes

> 2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?

No

> 3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?

Yes

>4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?

Many player use cheaper minor as an artifical second negative. Given that, 3♦ is artifical, its hard to construct a hand that would pass it...

>5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?

There are certainly semi-balanced hands where 3NT seems appropriate...
I can imagine 7321's with a running minor and a stiff honor where 3NT seems reasonable

>6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

As I noted, I don't play standard systems. When forced to do so, I'm usally happy to play whatever partner insists on. 2♣ opener's simply aren't frequent eough to get excited over...

[Gerben42]

Quote

1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?

Right. You need to know which sequences can be passed.
I play the following.

2♣ = SemiGF in a major, 23-24 balanced or any Game Forcing (optional if allowed: a weak two in ♦).

Responses:
2♦ = Game forcing opposite a SGF in a major (can be xxx xxxx x xxxxx though which will pass a 2NT response)
2♥ = Pass with a SGF in ♥ --> 2♠ nonforcing
2♠ = Pass with a SGF in ♠ but GF opposite ♥
2NT = Does not exist / Strong relay if weak2 in ♦ is included

The idea is: 2♦ sets up a game force making the whole thing easier.
For detailed information see Chris Ryall's Paradox bids

The weak two in ♦ is my own addition. If you have a very bad hand (2M response) partner will NEVER have the weak two, or opps have a slam.

[mikestar]

Playing 2D waiting, the agreement I prefer is that the bidding can stop short of game if and only if:

1) opener rebids 2N over 2D
2) opener bids a suit over 2D and rebids the same suit over the second negative.

All other auctions are game forcing.


The method that Ben prefers for 2C is vastly superior, especially when combined with multi.

See
http://www.cavendish...e/two/clubs.htm
and
http://www.cavendish...wo/diamonds.htm


If you must play in a venue where multi is illegal (ACBL GCC), you can drop the three suiters from 2C and use 2C-2x-2N for your strong balanced hands, then you won't need multi.

[debussyl]

Thanks all for interesting posts. I see merit of making 3c/3d as a forcing bid ( actually I was amazed to see 3c/3d was almost unanimously considered a forcing bid). However I am sure there are many circumstances when 3c or 3d might just be the right contract. How do you cover those circumstances?

When playing 2d response to strong 2c open as waiting, I always thought you cannot stop short of 3 level (except of course 2c-2d-2nt is not forcing). In other words, 2h/2s rebid is forcing, but 3c/3d rebid is NOT forcing. If this is acceptable, then the 2d responder's 3d bid over the opener's 3c rebid is forcing, but not a double negative, nor promising a diamond suit (of course does not deny a dia suit either).
This way, you may get more positive scores (yes you may also lose a couple of more low percentage games by dropping Qs and Js), which might bear some significance depending on whether it is an MP or IMP game.

Here is an example that just occurred in a recent sectional game. What is your bid and rebid with this holding after your pard's waiting 2d?

MP game, none vulnerable

You are the dealer, holding the following

AK
Ax
KQx
AQ9xxx

[Walddk]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 10:52 AM, said:

You are the dealer, holding the following

AK
Ax
KQx
AQ9xxx

2♣ - 2♦
2NT

Better than a 3♣ rebid although that would be forcing. If partner passes 2NT, game is not likely. Our normal 2NT system is on now.

Roland

[tysen2k]

I was going to post pretty much the exact same post as mikestar.

• Paradox bids are superior but not "standard"
  
• In standard, only those 2 particular sequences are not GF

Tysen

[inquiry]

Gerben42, on Apr 5 2005, 11:28 AM, said:

The idea is: 2♦ sets up a game force making the whole thing easier.
For detailed information see Chris Ryall's Paradox bids

Actually, 2D simply promises 1+ trick according to Chris's methods (unless he has changed them). So it isn't quite game force. The bidding can die in three of a major... The auction that can die is...

 2C     -  2D
2H/2S -   2NT
rebid major

Where 2NT is the "warning bid" that responder has only one trick for that major suit contract, and rebid the major says, that is not enough trricks.

Ben

[HeartA]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 08:49 AM, said:

Suppose you play 2c strong opening, 2d response as waiting. Your 2c open means 22+ HCP or 9+ trick hand with good values.

Here are my questions:

1. 2c open is forcing, but not game forcing. In other words, you may still stop short of a game, right?
2. Is your rebid of 2nt after 2d response forcing?
3. Is your rebid of 3c or 3d after 2d response forcing?
4. After 3c rebid, the 2D responder bid 3d. Is this 3d a forcing bid?
5. Would the rebid of 3nt after 2d response show a balanced hand only?
6. Would you do it differently whether it is a MP or IMP game?

Simply put, 2♣ opening forces TWO rounds except 2NT rebid (which is not forcing), unless you use 2♥ to show really weak hand (0-3, or 0-4 without A). So, 2♣ opening forces to 3M or 4m (except 2NT rebid).

[kenberg]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 10:52 AM, said:

When playing 2d response to strong 2c open as waiting, I always thought you cannot stop short of 3 level (except of course 2c-2d-2nt is not forcing). In other words, 2h/2s rebid is forcing, but 3c/3d rebid is NOT forcing. If this is acceptable, then the 2d responder's 3d bid over the opener's 3c rebid is forcing, but not a double negative, nor promising a diamond suit (of course does not deny a dia suit either).

First another story. I was playing against a pair who had the following auction: 2C-2D-2S-Pass

I suppose it is wrong but I couldn't resist. I turned to the 2C opener and asked if that was their second negative.

Now to the "what would I do" section of the post: You have added on more conditions. I play a waiting 2D only if partner really likes it, and playing that 2C-2D-3C is passable is not something I would consider. Nonetheless, if that was the agreement I would bid 3C, which I imagine is just right here.

Here is my view on 2C auctions: If you are going to have a long term partnership you find a lengthy expert presentation somewhere (unless you are prepared to write a lengthy expert presentation) that discusses various terminal sequences and various ways to develop an auction after the first round or two. Here is an example of what I mean, using the waiting 2D response: 2C-2D-2H. Suppose that responder has hearts. His strength is unknown because of the waiting bid. In the old "Aces Scientific" (I have lost my copy but I think I remember it somewhat accurately) responder, with 5-7 HCPs, first bids 2NT and then 4 hearts. A direct raise to 3 shows more than 7 HCPs. Other ways to 4 hearts show fewer than 5HCPs. A direct jump to 4 shows extra trumps and a little outside strength. Bidding 3C and then 4H shows extra trump but nothing else. I think this is roughly it, but the point is that you can sort out the strength. Many casual partnerships playing a waiting 2D only have the agreement that 3H would be stronger (by some unknown amount) than 4 (and some don't even have that agreement). So: In a serious partnership you adopt fully, and with substantial discussion, some reasonable system. A waiting 2D can work if this is done. In casual partnerships my main concern is to have some sort of idea about what partner is doing and I happily give up some theoretical advantages to acheive that. In the case of 2C that means I like something like 2D shows fewer than 7 HCPs. Or perhaps play that the response shows a count of controls. If he wants to play a waiting 2D I will do so and pray. I would assume the 3C as forcing as I believe (and as you can see from the responses) this is the usual way. Over 3C I would expect him to play 3D as a second negative. I would hope the auction 2C-2D-3D-3H would not happen during the course of our play. If it did, I would do something and then apologize profusely.

[cherdano]

I am strongly convinced that until you make agreements about a (second) double negative, it is best to play that anything besides a 2NT rebid is absolute game forcing. This implies, e.g., that after 2♣-2♦-2♥, a 3♥ reply shows something extra, whereas a 4♥ bid would show a fit with nothing else, at least definitely no control.
If you have 9 tricks in a minor, this means that opening 2♣-2♦-3m becomes too much of a stretch, and you are better of opening 1m (possiby planning to rebid 3NT), or using Roland's off-shape 2♣-2-♦-2NT.

[debussyl]

Roland,

I agree with your treatment with that hand (rebid 2nt), but I am still not convinced that is the best solution, simply because your system does not allow you to do otherwise (3c would be forcing as you said). However, that does not make 3c rebid superior than 2nt rebid. I would bet 3c would play better than 2nt facing a broke hand.

Wonder whether you would do the same if I change the hand slightly to something like the following:

AKx-A-KQx-AQ9xxx or
AKx-K-AKx-AQ9xxx

Also, please tell me what is wrong with my suggested 3c/3d rebid as non-forcing? Clearly if 3c rebid is allowed to be non-forcing, it could be better than 2nt rebid for these kind of holdings, especially for match point game.