[mike777]

NO expert here but if you play:
2D shows at least one K or ace.
2H shows zero.

Then:
all rebids after 2D=game force
rebids after 2h=not game force but very good hand.
With game force one must jump after 2H.

[Walddk]

debussyl, on Apr 5 2005, 09:45 PM, said:

Roland,

I agree with your treatment with that hand (rebid 2nt), but I am still not convinced that is the best solution, simply because your system does not allow you to do otherwise (3c would be forcing as you said). However, that does not make 3c rebid superior than 2nt rebid. I would bet 3c would play better than 2nt facing a broke hand. 

Wonder whether you would do the same if I change the hand slightly to something like the following:

AKx-A-KQx-AQ9xxx or
AKx-K-AKx-AQ9xxx

Also, please tell me what is wrong with my suggested 3c/3d rebid as non-forcing? Clearly if 3c rebid is allowed to be non-forcing, it could be better than 2nt rebid for these kind of holdings, especially for match point game.

The 2♣ opening in a natural system is the devil's work. It takes so much bidding room away and should therefore be avoided if there is no excuse whatsoever.

If I open 2♣ with a long minor, I like to have very good cards, i.e. virtually game in my own hand. Otherwise I prefer to open 1 of the minor. Consequently, it is not an option to let any rebid except 2NT be non forcing.

When opening 2♣ with long clubs or diamonds I think it's best to agree that it forces the partnership to at least 4 of the minor. If opener's cards are not good enough for that opposite a broke or near broke, he should open at the 1-level.

If I have agreed on playing 2♦ as waiting, I have 2 sequences where we can stop short of game (except 2NT again).

1. Opener rebids his major after a second negative by responder.

2. Responder gives preference to opener's major at the 3-level after a second negative.

I will give you a couple of examples. Please note that cheapest suit is what I use for second negative.

2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠ *)
3♥ -

Responder is allowed to pass.

2♣ - 2♦
2♠ - 3♣ *)
3♦ - 3♠

Opener is now allowed to pass.

*) Second negative. As to my first hand, 2NT would be positive with spades, and in the second example 2NT would be positive with clubs.

I think I will treat both your hands as balanced because my singleton is an honour, but they are difficult to handle. I wouldn't be surprised if I decided to open 1♣, especially non vulnerable at IMPs. We may miss the odd game if I do, but it rarely goes 1♣ all pass anyway, so I am not too worried.

Roland

[Gerben42]

About the Paradox bids:

Although in Chris' methods 2♦ is not yet a real game force I have the feeling his lower bound for a SGF might be lower than mine. Also I find that if partner has a trick the trick is usually also an entry which might be worth another trick. It's the difference between playing solo or not.

For example:

---

2♣ - 2♠ - 4♥ - Pass

In this hand the ♥Q counts as a trick for ♥ only so the right bid is 2♠. It is worth not only its trick as the Queen of trumps but also as an entry for the finesse in ♠.

Notice that paradox bids have the disadvantage that responder does not know if his one good card is worth a trick or not. In this particular hand ♦Q would be a trick and entry but ♣K would not. On the other hand playing waiting and 2nd negative you have the same problem.

[debussyl]

Roland,

It is ok if you have an agreement with your pard, but I do not think those are standard. Logically, I would not consider either 2s or 3c as second negative. You certainly would not bid 2s or 3c over 2c directly with something like Qxxxx (or even better) plus a side A or K, but rather bid 2d (waiting), right? If so, how would you be able to show this suit? I certainly do not want to ignore the suit by bidding 2nt or something.

Also, I do not think most experts would not open 2c, but open 1c (would you also open 1d if you switch the club suit to dia?) with the two examples I gave. Yes, most likely you will be allowed to play 1c, which may turn out to be a top score, admittedly.

Could you elaborate what is wrong with my 3c/3d rebid as nonforcing?

Don

[Walddk]

debussyl, on Apr 6 2005, 08:30 AM, said:

You certainly would not bid 2s or 3c over 2c directly with something like Qxxxx (or even better) plus a side A or K, but rather bid 2d (waiting), right? If so, how would you be able to show this suit? I certainly do not want to ignore the suit by bidding 2nt or something.

Read my post again. After

2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 2NT

is positive with spades because 2♠ would be second negative! Whether second negative is standard or not I don't know, but if you play 2♦ as automatic, or waiting if you like, responder should surely have a way of showing if he really has something or the usual rubbish.

Feel free to play opener's rebids of 3♣/♦ as non-forcing if you like, but I will not play it, and as we have seen already, most people who have contributed to this thread also play these as forcing.

If you really have a hand where partner is allowed to pass 3 of the minor, you should not have opened 2♣! It is that simple.

In an earlier thread I also wrote the two auctions where you can stop short of game after a 2♣ opening (apart from 2NT which is NF if it shows 22-24 balanced): 1. Opener rebids his major after a 2♦ response. 2. Responder gives preference to opener's first suit at the 3-level after a 2♦ response.

2♣ - 2♦
3♣

or

2♣ - 2♦
3♦

as passable will not work in my opinion. Does this mean that opener must jump to the 4-level in order to create a force? That is bad for 2 reasons. You can no longer play in 3NT, and you have ruined everything for your side by taking all the bidding room away from yourselves.

2♣ - 2♦
4♣

is an ugly auction, isn't it?

Roland

[debussyl]

First of all, playing 2d waiting does not mean you have to bid 2d over 2c AUTOMATICALLY with every hand. That is not what 2d waiting means. With a suit as good as AQxxx, why wait? Bid it (2h/2s etc.) immediately over 2c. Do not wait.

IMHO, using 2nt as an artifical bid (to show spades or clubs etc.) is not a good idea, because most likely you will play an NT contract from the wrong side. Also, I am a strong believer of "the best bid is the one that reflects your holding most".

Also, you do have some idea about what you pard has with the 2d response (he denies a good suit). Since your 2c open promises 22+ or/and 9+, with 9 tricks and every suit covered (a solid minor suit), simply bid 3nt ( do the same even if you miss stops on one suit -- what else?). Otherwise, bid 3c/3d. Your pard would still assume you had either 9+ tricks (would be something like solid minor but missing stops on two suits -- too much to try a gambling 3nt), or something similar to those examples I gave (a broken minor suit). If your pard was broke, do not force him to do anything again. If he's got something, I am sure he would do something intelligently. Even if you have 10 tricks but cannot try 3nt, it is still safe to bid 3c/3d (why jump to 4c/4d?) without having to worry about being passed by your pard -- he will do something intelligently if he is not broke.

Don