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High level takeout double what does a double response mean?

#1 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 03:39

Scoring: MP

P P 3♦ X
4♦ ?


Is double here a diamond stack? A max passed hand willing to play or defend? Or is it takeout in shape, asking partner to pick?

At IMPs I'd have no problem with 5♣, but here I can't help but think 4M might score better, especially as partner might be a bit off shape for the double, no?
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#2 User is offline   nigel_k 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 04:15

I would pass.

This hand is not that useful with the stiff ace of diamonds and likely losing finesses and bad breaks. If partner has enough to make 5♣ he will usually double again. And if he bids four of a major after our pass (as compared with double) it is much more likely to be correct.
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#3 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 05:17

Double is responsive and doubling with this hand is not a crazy idea. As you might also double with 2-4-2-5 shape for example, partner will pick her lowest 4-card major and not the longest.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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#4 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 05:55

Double is definitely responsive, but it's also what you would do with 4-4 in the majors for instance. I think none of X, pass, and 5C are bad though so whatever you choose I think was fine!

I am not crazy about it but I'd probably pass. Actually I'm really unhappy about it. If you pass, try to do so in tempo, it's possible partner will have enough to take some action.
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#5 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 06:01

5♣. vippie dooppie doo.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#6 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 09:04

partner's X of 3♦ is much better than an X of 1♦ so you need to show your minimal values....X
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#7 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 09:35

I really don't like double here, much prefer pass. But yes it's responsive.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#8 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 10:05

X, sometimes partner is 5-4 in the majors (though he never is when I X here)
I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

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#9 User is offline   bid_em_up 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 10:59

gwnn, on Jul 13 2010, 08:01 AM, said:

5♣. vippie dooppie doo.

must be Fred Flinstones long lost cousin.
Is the word "pass" not in your vocabulary?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
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#10 User is offline   Siegmund 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 14:12

My oldfashionedism showing through once again:

It will be responsive if and only if you've agreed to play responsive doubles this high. Otherwise it will be penalty. The actual hand you've posted is a tough one, on which I'd lead toward 5C but can see a case for passing or (if its your agreement) making a responsive double.

A quick scan of the posted convention cards on the USBF team trials site shows that almost everyone who made it to the late stages of the event plays responsive through 4D, 4H, 4S, or simply checks the "responsive" box without saying how high.

The built-in BBO Advanced convention card recommends regative and responsive to 4D. On the other hand, with pickup partners at live games, it is VERY rare for me to have a partner willing to play these above 3S (more often you have to talk them into using them at all, or raising the limit from 2S to 3S) -- I literally remember one, and only one, time that I've had a partner want to play responsive to this level. With an unknown I would assume responsive doesn't apply at the 4-level.
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#11 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2010-July-13, 14:28

Yeah I agree with Siegmund that it's definitely true that you shouldn't risk this undiscussed with an unfamiliar non expert partner, they'll probably take it as pen.
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