[shanbari]

i got following hand in team match.

we play general 2/1, and weak NT 12-14.

we are white vs red. partner open 1C first, could be only 2 club.

1C (1S) ??

♥2
♥2
♦109542
♣AQ9842


What to bid, reason ?

thanks

[ArtK78]

5♣.

Just a guess. Who knows what is making? Apply maximum pressure as soon as possible.

By the way, I ignore the chance that partner has only 2 clubs. That would imply exactly 4-4-3-2 distribution. Not very likely.

[karlson]

I would bid 5c (unless you open 1c with 4-2 or 5-2 in the minors, in which case I would bid 4n).

[waubrey]

How about 2S?

[pirate22]

INTERESTING.one has to decide-is it our hand or opps hand-the 1 spade bidder did not x-so who has the ht suit??? if pard is 4/4/3/2-it may be there hand---SO I BID
4CL PREPARED TO BID 5 cl depending what happens

[andy_h]

5♣, always.

[CSGibson]

5 clubs - they either have two major suit fits of 8 cards or better, or we have something like a 12 card club fit. Either way, I want to leave them with the last guess, and with as little information as possible before making that guess.

Edit: Just saw that you play a weak NT - now 5 clubs is even more attractive to me, since we've got play opposite a strong NT or an unbalanced hand with 4 or more clubs.

[pirate22]

Question-who has the ht suit?

[CSGibson]

pirate22, on Feb 6 2010, 03:31 AM, said:

Question-who has the ht suit?

the opponents have at least 8 spades and hearts between them, unless partner is on a 6-5 hand. This is completely obvious on the auction. Who cares if they are 6-2, 5-3, or 4-4?

[PhantomSac]

Don't like 5C playing weak NT, there's just too much chance partner has a strong NT hand type and they can't make any game. I would just bid 4C.

[1eyedjack]

Presumably 3♦ would be natural with a ♣ fit, but it doesn't seem appropriate here. 5♣ for me, and I don't care what strength 1N we play. What about if partner has a strong NT and they CAN make game? Too much guesswork I think if they bid 4M, and I would rather that they were the ones guessing. Out of interest, if partner opened 1N (strong) then 2♠ overcall, what would you do, and what would you do if 4♠ comes back to you?

[mike777]

shanbari, on Feb 5 2010, 04:13 PM, said:

i got following hand in team match.

we play general 2/1, and weak NT 12-14.

we are white vs red.  partner open 1C first, could be only 2 club.

1C (1S) ??

♥2
♥2
♦109542
♣AQ9842


What to bid,  reason ?

thanks

2clubs....

I grant I only got 6c but I take the risk.

[PhantomSac]

1eyedjack, on Feb 7 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

Presumably 3♦ would be natural with a ♣ fit, but it doesn't seem appropriate here. 5♣ for me, and I don't care what strength 1N we play. What about if partner has a strong NT and they CAN make game? Too much guesswork I think if they bid 4M, and I would rather that they were the ones guessing. Out of interest, if partner opened 1N (strong) then 2♠ overcall, what would you do, and what would you do if 4♠ comes back to you?

They have not bid 4S yet (or 4H). If they do, maybe partner will double, but I don't see why we would just assume they would automatically be bidding 4S if they have no HCP and only a 9 or 8 card fit.

Bidding 4C then 5C is considered evil but it is not necessarily so, especially when partner has an extremely wide range of shapes/values/ODR etc. If they bid game and it goes pass pass we have a lot of new information, specifically that:

1) They have a good spade fit/think they can make game
2) Partner does not think he can beat game

Given that info, saving seems right. If we bid 4C and it is RHO who reopens with 4S or something then we have to pass obviously.

It just seems really presumptuous to be bidding 5C when partners most likely hand is a strong NT hand type and quite possibly lots of major suit cards/strength, and possibly just 2 clubs and often just 3 clubs.

Of course the downside of this plan is that we don't make them guess at the 5 level, but I think it is worth it to avoid taking a phantom sac/having the option of them stretching to bid 4M and partner having a double.

[karlson]

If partner has the strong NT hand, I don't see why we can't make 5c a good portion of the time. Sure, sometimes he'll have a bunch of slow tricks in the majors, but sometimes when it goes 4c all out, you'll be +150 also. I'm not sure I can intelligently estimate this probability.

They have not just one major suit fit, but 2. I think this is very different from blasting 5c when they only have a spade fit, and even that might only be 8 cards. We basically know they have a double fit, and more often than not, one of the fits will be at least 9 cards. If it's hearts, we have a good chance of burying it now.

To me it seems the most likely thing that will happen if I bid 4c then 5c is that they bid 5M over that and we can't beat that either.

Obviously there are a ton of unknowns, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm proven crazy, but for now I'm pretty shocked by your recommendation.

[mike777]

2 clubs..

lets limit our hand in terms of how strong we are in hcp.

at this point pardknows we have what....5clubs and weakish hcp.

the bidding may not be over.

[PhantomSac]

karlson, on Feb 7 2010, 03:29 AM, said:

If partner has the strong NT hand, I don't see why we can't make 5c a good portion of the time. Sure, sometimes he'll have a bunch of slow tricks in the majors, but sometimes when it goes 4c all out, you'll be +150 also. I'm not sure I can intelligently estimate this probability.

When 5C makes opposite the strong NT, partner will likely be primed out. It seems likely he can bid 5C when it's right. Also, the type of hands where 5C makes opp a 15-17 NT are the type where our hands fit well and they are probably going to bid 4M anyways, so if our plan is to bid 5C over 4M p p, I think we are doing a good job of getting to 5C opposite the right strong NTs, and playing 4C opposite the wrong ones.

If the opps are cold for 5M obviously it may help them that we bid 4C rather than 5C, but they may bid it either way. Obviously the biggest loss of bidding 4C is that we may let them bid 5M when it's right, or help them stay out of 5M when it's wrong, but I think people are overestimating how often everyone makes a lot of tricks, and how often it will gain to bid 5C rather than 4C immediately.

[aguahombre]

So, let's change the conditions: When would 5C be right with this hand? Strong NT being used? Opener always having 3+clubs?

I think it is still a 4C bid.

[shanbari]

due to we play weak NT,

this time my partner had 17HCP, balanced hand 3433.

♠ K J 9
♥ K J X X
♦ A Q X
♣ K X X

we have to loose 2 major aces, and one diamond.
so 4C is limit. I jump 4C at table, partner raise to 5C.
not quite sure of what went wrong.. 3N is excellent contract.

someone mentioned 2C, my arguement is if partner had 12-14, for example remove the SK, then opponent would likey have 4M contract. 4C may do the job, or even direct 5C.