[babalu1997]

I held

a
xxxx
aqjtx
akjt

I opened 1 club, playing basic agreements, imps, and the bidding goes

1club-p-1heart-p-4hearts

we missed 6 hearts because that was passed out, partner, who hel the hand below say he is barred from bidding because I signed off.

his hand was

kxx
akxxx
x
qxxx


I did not signoff, i told him very strongly that we have 4 hearts opposite a minimum from him and he was far from swhowing his strength, yet it was up to him to go on.

he claims it was my fault for not trying for slam, and does not understand my point?

do i get a free lunch?

[manudude03]

Responder gets the blame. Fast arrival only applies when strength is approximately known.

[Trumpace]

I suggest we move this to the B/I forum.

in the sequence
1C - 1H
4H

4H is not signoff.

What did your partner suggest you bid instead of 4H?

[ArtK78]

You bid a game opposite a possible 5 count. That should show a hand of approximately the stength of your hand. Partner, with MUCH more than he has promised for his bid, should know that slam is very likely and bid again.

By the way, it seems that you underbid your cards. Any hand with 19 HCP and 4-1-5-4 distribution is very powerful. You might even make all 14 tricks on this hand if partner's hand fits well. Of course, he might have only 12 cards, which will cause a significant delay at the time of his turn to play at trick 13. Clearly, someone is going to run out of cards before you do (unless one or both of the j's in your diagram stands for Joker).

[jjbrr]

ArtK78, on Dec 15 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

You bid a game opposite a possible 5 count. That should show a hand of approximately the stength of your hand. Partner, with MUCH more than he has promised for his bid, should know that slam is very likely and bid again.

By the way, it seems that you underbid your cards. Any hand with 19 HCP and 4-1-5-4 distribution is very powerful. You might even make all 14 tricks on this hand if partner's hand fits well. Of course, he might have only 12 cards, which will cause a significant delay at the time of his turn to play at trick 13.

This post is gold.

Even with 13 cards, this hand might be too strong for 4♥

[kenrexford]

If I were playing with this person as Responder, and he said that 4♥ was a signoff, I know what my response would be:

"If 4♥ is a signoff, then I think you should know that I am an idiot for signing off. Clearly, I made a mistake. So, you should and could save me from my ignorance by bidding on with that hand."

[babalu1997]

Trumpace, on Dec 15 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

I suggest we move this to the B/I forum.

in the sequence
1C - 1H
4H

4H is not signoff.

What did your partner suggest you bid instead of 4H?

He did not have an answer to what i should bid, and then he went on for anorther team match, but i did not follow him there.

Now i do not play off line bridge, and I read the so-called 'standard books'.

Although i did discuss this with this partner, as we have played on and off for a while, he is not the only one who would do that.

There are some players who love the light count, and open *every 11 count*

there was a hand i saw open on the same team match, i swear:

qxx
ajtx
kxxxx
q

they then bid to 2 hearts, and i balanced 3 clubs on a 12 count, kjt9xxx, making 5 imps

the corollary to this is that when they open with a 14 count and you answer 1 heart, they jump to 4, when you are just trying to find something not to pass their 1 minor open.

i have seen players form several countries do this so some palooka must be going around teaching people.

[Hanoi5]

I agree 4♥ is not a sign-off, merely a bid showing strength. I don't see it as a bad bid when playing with a pick-up partner but it would be great to have the agreement that a double jump by opener shows fit and a great hand and usually a splinter in the suit where the double jump was made.

[Vilgan]

Hanoi5, on Dec 15 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

I agree 4♥ is not a sign-off, merely a bid showing strength. I don't see it as a bad bid when playing with a pick-up partner but it would be great to have the agreement that a double jump by opener shows fit and a great hand and usually a splinter in the suit where the double jump was made.

This is a pretty bad hand to splinter on though imo. You have the A in the short suit, and more points than partner would expect. Imo auction went perfectly until responder passed, which is a pretty wtf?!? mistake even for a beginner.

[Stephen Tu]

The concise way to educate partner is to say:
"Game bids are only signoffs when partner's hand has been limited by previous bidding. Your 1H bid is unlimited, therefore my bid cannot be a signoff, and in fact shows a great deal of strength since your minimum is only 6 pts or so."

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

you have 19HCP (assuming I counted correct), he has 12.

The 4H bis usually showes a 5422 hand with approx. 18-20, due
to the lack of a splinter, but 4333 is possible.

Partner also knowes, that the partnership has a 5-4 fit.
And since you opened 1C, partner should realize, that you have a likely
double fit, so the strength of his hand increases.

So, yes your partner should have made another move, or even force
to slam, assuming all key cards are on bord.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

One of my alltime favorite bridge hands involved 14 cards opposite 12 cards. It's from one of my favorite bridge books.

[P_Marlowe]

babalu1997, on Dec 15 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

Trumpace, on Dec 15 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

I suggest we move this to the B/I forum.

in the sequence
1C - 1H
4H

4H is not signoff.

What did your partner suggest you bid instead of 4H?

He did not have an answer to what i should bid, and then he went on for anorther team match, but i did not follow him there.

Now i do not play off line bridge, and I read the so-called 'standard books'.

Although i did discuss this with this partner, as we have played on and off for a while, he is not the only one who would do that.

There are some players who love the light count, and open *every 11 count*

there was a hand i saw open on the same team match, i swear:

qxx
ajtx
kxxxx
q

they then bid to 2 hearts, and i balanced 3 clubs on a 12 count, kjt9xxx, making 5 imps

the corollary to this is that when they open with a 14 count and you answer 1 heart, they jump to 4, when you are just trying to find something not to pass their 1 minor open.

i have seen players form several countries do this so some palooka must be going around teaching people.

Unless I miscount, the example hand has 12HCP, and most would open 1H.

And even if you open every 11count, this does not mean, that you will jump
to game, holding 14.

But there is something, in your statement: The 4H bid may be a stretch,
espesially playing IMPs, i.e. there will be cases, when you have a nice
looking 16/17 count, all Aces and kings, and a 5431 distribution, and you
think 3H is not enough, in which case, you will jump to game.

The consequence is, that to move towards slam, you need to get a bit more
conservative, but this does not justify partners pass over 4H, it may just justify
a slam invite, instead of a force to slam.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[peachy]

This will be absolutely unanimous.
4H is a descriptive bid, saying I have clubs and 4-card hearts and strong hand so I expect 4H to make opposite a minimum response. It is not a signoff.

Responder should have started slam investigation.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Dec 17 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

One of my alltime favorite bridge hands involved 14 cards opposite 12 cards. It's from one of my favorite bridge books.

sounds like a story involving a caviar sandwich.

[pooltuna]

babalu1997, on Dec 15 2009, 11:04 AM, said:

I held

a
xxxx
aqjtx
akjt

I opened 1 club, playing basic agreements, imps, and the bidding goes

1club-p-1heart-p-4hearts

we missed 6 hearts because that was passed out, partner, who hel the hand below say he is barred from bidding because I signed off.

his hand was

kxx
akxxx
x
qxxx


I did not signoff, i told him very strongly that we have 4 hearts opposite a minimum from him and he was far from swhowing his strength, yet it was up to him to go on.

he claims it was my fault for not trying for slam, and does not understand my point?

do i get a free lunch?

and a free dinner as well but not a free breakfast as you should have limits with someone trying to foist blame on you for this

[pooltuna]

Trumpace, on Dec 15 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

I suggest we move this to the B/I forum.

in the sequence
1C - 1H
4H

4H is not signoff.

What did your partner suggest you bid instead of 4H?

3♠ is an alternative call but no enough to absolve responder

[Cyberyeti]

Playing few gadgets, 4♥ is not a signoff, playing what I do every day, 4♥ is a very poor shapely opening bid, xxx, KJxx, void, AJ10xxx would not be unusual (GF raises go through an artificial 2N). Is it possible your partner is used to playing the odd gadget and has forgotten that standard system means 4♥ is all you can do with some good hands.

[ArtK78]

In standard bidding, 4♥ shows a very strong hand - strong enough to insist on game opposite a possible 5 count.

Yes, many partnerships choose to play the jump to game as a shapely minimum, but that is not standard. One should not assume the shapely minimum definition unless one has an explicit agreement with partner to that effect.

[neilkaz]

peachy, on Dec 17 2009, 11:08 AM, said:

This will be absolutely unanimous.
4H is a descriptive bid, saying I have clubs and 4-card hearts and strong hand so I expect 4H to make opposite a minimum response. It is not a signoff.

Responder should have started slam investigation.

Yes..100% pard's fault.

I note that I don't care to splinter here with the stiff ace.