[awm]

This one seemed tricky, and was missed by both tables in a team match. Yet it's pretty cold. How would you bid it?

Scoring: IMP

---

[Apollo81]

Perhaps 1♠-2♥-3♦-4♥-5♥-6♥, although this won't work if you play Kickback.

[jdonn]

1♠ 2♥
3♦ 3♥
4♣ 4NT

Where 4♣ is a stronger heart raise than 4♥. It seems simple to me.

[Fluffy]

1♠-1NT
2♦-4♥
-

1♠-4♥
-

Anything else doesn't look real to me.

[Apollo81]

Fluffy, on Jun 24 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Anything else doesn't look real to me.

Is it so unbelievable that we would show a game force with a decent 8 card major and an Ace opposite an opening bid?

[mikeh]

I would not expect to get there in real life

1♠  2♥  3♦  3♥  4♥  ?

2♥ gf, an overstatement of high card values opposite a potential heart void, but anything else seems calculated to cause huge problems later

3♦: extra values

3♥: I wouldn't bid 4♥ here, I would play 4♥ as a limited hand with very good hearts

4♥: I wouldn't use josh's device of 4♣ unless I held a club control, and I have already promised values with 3♦

The final pass over 4♥ is debatable... and I wouldn't argue with another move, whether that be 5♣ or keycard... my tendency is to cue bid in these auctions, and any move will get to slam. So maybe I would get to it.. but I surely don't think it is 'easy'... unless presented as a problem. That is NOT a knock on josh, btw, more a concession of my limitations. If he thinks it's easy in his partnerships, I believe him

[mtvesuvius]

OK, I've tried a 2/1 auction and failed, so I will attempt a precision auction:

1♣ - 1♠: 16+ Any/8-11 with 5+♥
1NT - 3♥: 2♥ with 16-19/Sets ♥ as trump; Demanding Cuebid
3♠ - 3NT: Cue/Baby 1430
4♠ - 4NT: 2 Keycards with the Q♥/King Ask
5♥ - 6♥: 2 Kings/12 Tricks seems reasonable

[mike777]

awm, on Jun 24 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

This one seemed tricky, and was missed by both tables in a team match. Yet it's pretty cold. How would you bid it?

Scoring: IMP

---

1s=2h
3d=3h
4s=(kickback for h)=etc..

[jdonn]

Wow my auction still looks normal to me. 4♣ doesn't promise a club control, it's an artificial bid showing a raise to 4♥ with extra values. There are many similar auctions with that type of bid. I wouldn't say it's universal among experts, but certainly common enough that I would consider it standard for experts and not fear partner misunderstanding.

[Codo]

I agree with Fluffy,

when I can show a hand with limited high card strength but enough trick taking potential in heart in a possible misfit, I will use this sequence.

Playing SAYc however, where 1 NT can be passed, this is an easy 2 ♥ rebid.

[the hog]

Agree with Roland and Fluffy.

[Apollo81]

jdonn, on Jun 24 2009, 05:31 PM, said:

Wow my auction still looks normal to me. 4♣ doesn't promise a club control, it's an artificial bid showing a raise to 4♥ with extra values. There are many similar auctions with that type of bid. I wouldn't say it's universal among experts, but certainly common enough that I would consider it standard for experts and not fear partner misunderstanding.

I also would not fear partner misunderstanding this 4♣ bid, and I usually take the opposite position in such situations.

[Fluffy]

Apollo81, on Jun 24 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jun 24 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Anything else doesn't look real to me.

Is it so unbelievable that we would show a game force with a decent 8 card major and an Ace opposite an opening bid?

yeah by bidding 4♥ we show a game force .

Seriously, I believe I make many mistakes for bidding slowly hands that I shouldn't, just because I love many rounds of bidding. But I don't think this is one of those, 4♥ shows more or less this hand, the hand just fits too good.

[jdonn]

Fluffy, on Jun 25 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

Apollo81, on Jun 24 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jun 24 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Anything else doesn't look real to me.

Is it so unbelievable that we would show a game force with a decent 8 card major and an Ace opposite an opening bid?

yeah by bidding 4♥ we show a game force .

Seriously, I believe I make many mistakes for bidding slowly hands that I shouldn't, just because I love many rounds of bidding. But I don't think this is one of those, 4♥ shows more or less this hand, the hand just fits too good.

If 4♥ more or less shows this hand then why would opener pass?

[Free]

My auction would start:
1♠ - 2♥ (nat ; GF except rebid after min response)
2NT - 3♥ (16+HCP no shortness ; sets trumps)
3♠ - 3NT (cue ; frivolous)
...

Now it depends if South likes his hand.

[NickRW]

jdonn, on Jun 25 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jun 25 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

Apollo81, on Jun 24 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jun 24 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Anything else doesn't look real to me.

Is it so unbelievable that we would show a game force with a decent 8 card major and an Ace opposite an opening bid?

yeah by bidding 4♥ we show a game force .

Seriously, I believe I make many mistakes for bidding slowly hands that I shouldn't, just because I love many rounds of bidding. But I don't think this is one of those, 4♥ shows more or less this hand, the hand just fits too good.

If 4♥ more or less shows this hand then why would opener pass?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Seems to me that we're finding a making 6 more often than there is a 5 minus 1 disaster, so 4♠ seems in order.

Nick

[awm]

Our auction was:

1♠ - 2♥ (invitational or better natural)
3♦ (extras, natural) - 3♥
4♥ - Pass

While I agree with the interpretation of 4♣, south has already shown extras in our methods by making the high reverse into diamonds. Is this hand really so good as to be worth showing even further extras? I suspect that 4♣ would be treated more or less as "forcing to slam if we are not off two cashers."

In a 2/1 GF style the 3♦ bid might not show as much extra (especially if 5-5) but the 2♥ bidder already upgraded substantially for the eight-card suit. While this is not an unreasonable position to take, it seems somewhat pushy for north to then subsequently upgrade again and push past 4♥ over the 4♣ "good raise."

Of course, you can always get to slam if someone is willing to push for it.

[Apollo81]

awm, on Jun 25 2009, 02:05 PM, said:

Our auction was:

1♠ - 2♥ (invitational or better natural)
3♦ (extras, natural) - 3♥
4♥ - Pass

While I agree with the interpretation of 4♣, south has already shown extras in our methods by making the high reverse into diamonds. Is this hand really so good as to be worth showing even further extras?

Yes.

Quote

I suspect that 4♣ would be treated more or less as "forcing to slam if we are not off two cashers."

That's what 4♣-4♥-5♥ is for.

Quote

In a 2/1 GF style the 3♦ bid might not show as much extra (especially if 5-5) but the 2♥ bidder already upgraded substantially for the eight-card suit. While this is not an unreasonable position to take, it seems somewhat pushy for north to then subsequently upgrade again and push past 4♥ over the 4♣ "good raise."

Once you find out partner has doubleton support, you're worth a full game force and more, IMO.