[Rotax]

Interesting to see the comments here. Why not kick out Germany from the World Bridge Federation ?

None here knows what happened excactly, but Germany must be punished )))))

Beside the fact that both are of non german origin, most likley they have been transformed to "Huns" by Angela Merkel

[barryallen]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 06:09 AM, said:

Why is it bad sportsmanship? I would say that, if anything, it is bad sportsmanship to continue playing in a hopeless position. Even when you are a lot up, it is still tiring to continue concentrating and you might think that forcing England to play on, while Italy are having an early night, would be unfair on England.

Conceding mid-segment is unusual, but only because there's always the chance that teammates have done something spectacular.

My guess from the (lack of) swangames running scores is that Norway conceded against Italy before the last segment started. Is that also bad sportsmanship?

I suppose it is bad sportsmanship, but does it really matter. You are allowed to conceed so does it exactly matter the manner in which it was done. I can imagine that some
schadenfreude amongst the kibitzer's was missed on the Germans being slowly roasted over the spit for the remaining hands. If concessions are part of the make up of the game when the position becomes impossible, why all the protestations. If you don't like it, get the rules changed.

[mrdct]

LAW 74C8 seems to cover this situation fairly well, "The following are examples of violations of procedure ... leaving the table needlessly before the round is called".

There is also the issue of bringing the game into disrepute which, if I recall correctly, came in to play in relation to the infamous "we didn't vote for bush" incident.

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Ban them?  For what?

Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately.

Our posts crossed, but that is the first time it's been said in this thread that they threw imps deliberately.

I was there (no surprise), and they definitely did. Wladow overbid deliberately. Unfortunately we don't have it stored in our archives, because the match finished in midstream!

There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic. You ask Peter Crouch for example (one of the commentators). You know him well, so I am sure you believe him when he says exactly the same.

Roland

[mcleod]

Hi,

first of all:
its not "the Germans", it is exactly one pair.
To be precise, its only one player from this pair.
Lets call them Dr. W and Dr. E, or, if appropriate, the Docs.

I do think, they shd be punished im some way, but this an internal Affair of the German Bridge Federation, as they did not violate any rules (as far as I know).
If there is a rule that has been violated, then the Pair (ideally the player) shd be punished in an appropriate way, maybe by ban, maybe money maybe whatsoever.
I agree on that it depends on the manner in whick they left the room. But the leaving itself is imho not to be punished.

@Roland#1
did the Docs really give away those bad scores _deliberately_? Who says so? Proof? Is it forbidden to have a bad day?

@Roland, #2
Please stick to the Rules. I feel you are making this very personal and heavy. As you are the official Coordinator of the Vuegraphs on BBO, I expect somewhat more moderate posts. Maybe this expectation is not shared here, then feel free to proceed.

[Gerardo]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 09:08 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Ban them?  For what?

Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. This is hardly "ethical behaviour", and there is a section where it reads that players must behave ethically correctly at all times.

Feel free to think that this behaviour is ethical. I don't think it is.

Roland

Hmmm. Who says it was a deliberate throwing?

I'd think (without more info, as I have (nothing)) they had a string of very bad results, considered the match lost, and conceded it (mid-session, which is highly unusual).

[aleksfl]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 07:23 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Ban them?  For what?

Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately.

Our posts crossed, but that is the first time it's been said in this thread that they threw imps deliberately.

I was there (no surprise), and they definitely did. Wladow overbid deliberately. Unfortunately we don't have it stored in our archives, because the match finished in midstream!

There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic. You ask Peter Crouch for example (one of the commentators). You know him well, so I am sure you believe him when he says exactly the same.

Roland

Deliberatly? Didn't they just try to create crazy swings to get back in the match?

[FrancesHinden]

aleksfl, on Oct 15 2008, 01:17 PM, said:

If you compare this to other sports this is very strange. No soccerteam has ever left the field in the middle of a game because they have no chance of winning. In chess they only give up in a game (its like giving up a contract in bridge). Never a match.

In chess, and in snooker, you concede both a game and a match when you cannot win it (e.g. if it is 'best of 11' and you have lost 6 games you don't play on).

Admittedly bridge is not quite the same until you are down by more than 24 imps x number of remaining boards.

[aleksfl]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 07:28 AM, said:

aleksfl, on Oct 15 2008, 01:17 PM, said:

If you compare this to other sports this is very strange. No soccerteam has ever left the field in the middle of a game because they have no chance of winning. In chess they only give up in a game (its like giving up a contract in bridge). Never a match.

In chess, and in snooker, you concede both a game and a match when you cannot win it (e.g. if it is 'best of 11' and you have lost 6 games you don't play on).

Admittedly bridge is not quite the same until you are down by more than 24 imps x number of remaining boards.

Of course. You are right, but I ment: You never give up if you have av theretical chance

[Walddk]

mcleod, on Oct 15 2008, 02:24 PM, said:

@Roland, #2
Please stick to the Rules. I feel you are making this very personal and heavy. As you are the official Coordinator of the Vuegraphs on BBO, I expect somewhat more moderate posts. Maybe this expectation is not shared here, then feel free to proceed.

Let me make this clear so that no misunderstanding is possible. I do not speak on behalf of BBO, but on behalf of Roland Wald. Even a vugraph coordinator is allowed to express his personal views I would think.

Roland

[paulie1990]

mrdct, on Oct 15 2008, 07:21 AM, said:

LAW 74C8 seems to cover this situation fairly well, "The following are examples of violations of procedure ... leaving the table needlessly before the round is called".

What is, however, the recommended punishment, if there is any? My opinion is that this law tries to prevent players from walking out of the room in order to get some disallowed information (that was the case in the Kramnik-Topalov 2006 chess match). So I'd expect the rules would recommend to make a score adjustment, not any kind of ban (at minimum, any kind of ban outside the very tournament). But maybe it's different?

[david_c]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic.

I was watching, and no, I don't agree. Yes, he made a string of highly anti-percentage calls. If that's the way he wants to try and get back the 60-IMP deficit, I don't have a problem with it. It just so happened that each one got severely punished. And maybe he was "on tilt" at the end, but that's not the same as losing your temper.

I don't have any problem with the concession, so long as it was done graciously. Shake hands and congratulate your opponents - that's fine. If they stormed out, that would be different.

It may be that there is a rule against it. But even if so, I do not think that a severe punishment is needed.

[Sambolino]

i like the heat in here!

[paulie1990]

david_c, on Oct 15 2008, 07:33 AM, said:

I don't have any problem with the concession, so long as it was done graciously. Shake hands and congratulate your opponents - that's fine. If they stormed out, that would be different.

It may be that there is a rule against it. But even if so, I do not think that a severe punishment is needed.

I couldn't agree more.

[Rotax]

@ mcleod

you are right.

The statements of Walddk

"There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic."

"I was there (no surprise), and they definitely did. Wladow overbid deliberately. Unfortunately we don't have it stored in our archives, because the match finished in midstream!"

are not much better than the behaviour of the docs

[42]

Hi again,
I just read on the official site of the DBV http://www.bridge-ve....de/web/news/27, that the TD ALLOWED the concession in the middle of the last segment.
It is always better to know the circumstances for sure before making any statements...
Caren

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic....

It'll be interesting to hear what the players thought - I'll ask Nick when he gets back next week as he was at the table... but by then this commotion will all probably have died down. And they'll either be mourning or celebrating their results from the final!

p.s. England in both the Open and Women's finals. Who'd have thought it?

[Walddk]

Rotax, on Oct 15 2008, 02:36 PM, said:

@ mcleod

you are right.

The statements of Walddk

"There is no doubt in my mind that all commentators and spectators will agree that Wladow lost his temper at some point and bid like a lunatic."

"I was there (no surprise), and they definitely did. Wladow overbid deliberately. Unfortunately we don't have it stored in our archives, because the match finished in midstream!"

are not much better than the behaviour of the docs

The trouble with Entscho Wladow is that he has a record, a bad one, and he has been suepended before. Guess why? Yes, because of "unethical behaviour". I know this pair very well; as a matter of fact Michael Elinescu and I are friends.

With this said, it is also a fact that this pair is not very well liked (to be diplomatic), not in Germany and not outside the country. Please note that I am talking about their behaviour at the bridge table, not away from it. They are both very nice individuals.

I don't mind if people tell me that my bridge play is rotten, so long as they don't say that my behaviour at the table is dubious. Fortunately I have no such reputation after 45 years in the game - also at the highest level.

Roland

[Gerben42]

DISCLAIMER: I didn't watch the match, but I did see the results and I know the player in question well.

Questions to those who want to punish the German team, or even the German federation. Do you think that if some football player makes a bad foul, that he should receive a red card or should his team be disqualified?

This is assuming there was something worth punishment, which from here is impossible to judge.

[kgr]

- I don't see any difference in giving up in the middle of a segment ot between segments. (only that it is less nice if a vugraph is running, but then how intersting is the vugraph at that stage).
- Playing bad by purpose is against the law, but if Germany was a lot of IMPs behind then bidding wild or against the odds was probably the only way to still win.
 
Maybe they discussed between them to give up before the segment started and then decided to try to gain IMPs by bidding anti field or even very wield. This didn"t work, they congratulated the opps and they gave up. In my opinion: nothing wrong with that.