[mrdct]

sharp01, on Oct 15 2008, 06:38 AM, said:

I find much more "disgusting" Norway conceding cold blooded (world and european reigning champions... THEY have to set up standards).

Conceding in a knock-out match with a segment to play when down a suitable margin is completely normal and happens frequently in major tournaments. If anything it's the ethical thing to do by not wasting everyone's time playing on pointlessly.

Conceding mid-segment is completely different and is without precedent as far as I'm aware.

Walking out mid-session is not acceptable in a social home game, it's not acceptable in a club duplicate and it's certainly not acceptable in a world championship semi-final.

[paulie1990]

As for me, I think it's necessary to know more details about what exactly has happened. I can't really imagine that they have just risen after four bad boards without saying a word and walked out of the room. Obviously the Germans had to cooperate, unless there was present some sort of telepathy. So if they agreed on it with opponents, or at least explaining their intentions, I consider it being perfectly correct. After all, in many sports you can see players give up if they play somewhat terribly. I think the closest to bridge are other mind-sports, like poker or chess. And is it not a typical ending in these two games that one side gives up?

[FrancesHinden]

charles_l, on Oct 15 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

ajm218, on Oct 15 2008, 06:27 AM, said:

Ask the England players - surely they are far happier with the concession midway  and an earlier night than having to play an additional 10 pointless boards...?

Italy earned the extra rest by beating Norway soundly. i think the walkout is unsporting.

italy earned a rest by beating Norway soundly, but england don't earn a rest by beating Germany soundly?

[smiffy]

I'm not sure about punishments bridge-wise, but if these two players have a doctor in medicine i really would not want to have them as my doctors. They might walk out on me in the middle of a complicated brain surgery just because it does not work out as they had expected.

[jackthelad]

Bridge is a game where emotions are tested. The higher up the game you play, the more extreme the emotions. Without emotion bridge is nothing; so a little understanding of the extreme stress that germans felt might go a long way here. No one wants to make mistakes, but when they are of atomic proportions, then sometimes the resultant actions are equally extreme. All bridge players have felt like this at one time or another. I vote for a sympathetic approach.

[kernow]

i am english and the germans were right from every perspective - it was Zia who suggested that if it is just not your day one should get it over quick and get on to the next game

[Walddk]

You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400 ... and then walk away!. Is that how we want to teach the youngsters? If you are about to lose, just do like the Germans did!?

I don't think that is the way forward, sorry.

I also agree that the Germans should be allowed to play on, as there doesn't seem to be a rule to penalise them. However, I am sure that the DBV will take an appropriate action very soon. In fact, I know they will. It can't happen soon enough.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

Bosi2, on Oct 15 2008, 12:24 PM, said:

I think its has to do with lack of respect, for the sport, opps and all the people that are following the game, my suggestion is to ban the pair for some time.

Ban them? For what?

Have they broken one of the regulations of the tournament? If so, then they might be punished for it. If not, then not.

Whether or not you think it's bad manners/bad sportsmanship, it's either legal or it isn't. If it's legal, there should be no punishment.

[sudi]

Quote

Walking out mid-session is not acceptable in a social home game, it's not acceptable in a club duplicate and it's certainly not acceptable in a world championship semi-final.

Quote

They should ban the two players involved from international play for a very long time. But not do anything at all with the rest of the German team, in Beijing now or next years Bermuda Bowl.

No more words needed

[jmcw]

Whats all the fuss about.

If the German's violated a rule they should be punished accordingly, perhaps a ban of the pair involved.

I suspect they broke no rules, probably just extremely tired and dissappointed.

Walking out is nothing more than plain bad manners.

[yoder]

I see no reason why a team can't concede in the middle of a match, unless there are some regulations against it that I don't know about.

The charge of "bad sportsmanship" should really be about HOW they did it, not that they did it.

Any punishment should be on the individual players, not on the team, and it should be mild.

I think if the match had not been on the vugraph, the whole incident would have been dealt with by the TD as a concession, the players mildly chastised about their manners, and the opponents glad of the extra rest. So why are we making a big deal about here?

[Walddk]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Ban them? For what?

Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately. This is hardly "ethical behaviour", and there is a section where it reads that players must behave ethically correctly at all times.

Feel free to think that this behaviour is ethical. I don't think it is.

Roland

[ksk2005]

It is interesting that some do see anything wrong with the withdrawl after few very bad scores. I do. However, I agree with those who suggest to ban the pair NOT the team. The ban needs to be a very long one to discourage these types of behavior.

[yoder]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 07:02 AM, said:

You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400  ... and then walk away!.

Wait, are you saying that the big score losses were deliberately throwing hands??? They didn't just concede rudely, but threw tricks?

If so, that's an entirely different situation, and completely unethical. But that's not what the original post in this thread says.

[sharp01]

Any law and regulation cannot be retroactive and should not be used "as setting an example". Now, THAT would be highly unethical!

[Walddk]

yoder, on Oct 15 2008, 02:13 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 07:02 AM, said:

You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400  ... and then walk away!.

Wait, are you saying that the big score losses were deliberately throwing hands??? They didn't just concede rudely, but threw tricks?

If so, that's an entirely different situation, and completely unethical. But that's not what the original post in this thread says.

I said "threw IMPs" by overbidding intentionally. Same thing. It's unethical in my world.

Roland

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:02 PM, said:

You bring the game into disrepute when you deliberately concede 1100, 1100, 800 and 1400 ... and then walk away!. Is that how we want to teach the youngsters? If you are about to lose, just do like the Germans did!?

I don't think that is the way forward, sorry.

I haven't seen the hands. Were the penalties deliberate? Or were they attempts to win the match - don't forget they were 70+ imps down before the last set started, you'd expect to see some pretty swingy things tried.

And there seem to be three different things being discussed.

Bad manners? Well, possibly, but a world championship SF is not the same as a social game. In a social game my opponents will be cross if I walk out half way. I doubt the England team were cross that the Germans walked out. Bad manners to the vugraph audience, yes, I agree with that.

Bad sportsmanship? No, don't see it.

Illegal? As I've said, depends what the regulations say.

There are plenty of instances in sport where people are forced to continue playing from an obviously lost (or, in cricket, obviously drawn) position rather than concede. It's never very interesting to watch, and you often think 'if only they could just get it over with'.

[aleksfl]

If you compare this to other sports this is very strange. No soccerteam has ever left the field in the middle of a game because they have no chance of winning. In chess they only give up in a game (its like giving up a contract in bridge). Never a match.

Int championships have changed after BBO. The world is watching, so therefor you should show sportsmanship and finish the match.

[pelepele]

As per the guidelines from the conditions of contest

http://www.ecatsbridge.com/Documents/files...lConditions.pdf

page 11 under the heading Ethics and Deportment

It will be for the WBF to determine if the action of the Germans is within the conditions of the contest.

The fact that a concession before a set starts is accepted, would appear to be within the accepted norms of the WBF heading Ethics and Deportment.

When you play in Team the punishment is for the Team regardless to the actions of any individual player or that other players might have no part.

[FrancesHinden]

Walddk, on Oct 15 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 15 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Ban them?  For what?

Ban them for throwing IMPs away deliberately.

Our posts crossed, but that is the first time it's been said in this thread that they threw imps deliberately.