[Fluffy]

Walddk, on Sep 20 2007, 05:47 PM, said:

Those who claim that 3♥ sets the suit seem to forget that 2♦ was not game forcing. 3♥ establishes a game force, but it does not guarantee a solid or semi-solid suit.

I don't know the system, but even me knows that 2♦promises a rebid, hence no need to jump to 3♥ at all, specially since 2♥ almost promises 6 cards already .

For the french 3♥ would also set trumps, and 2♦ is just 10+, 3+ cards.

[ArtK78]

bhall, on Sep 20 2007, 03:25 PM, said:

I have seen national champs make the 3♥ rebid on AJ109xx and worse.

3♥ on AJT9xx? In that case, the 3♥ bid must have been game forcing when a 2♥ bid could be passed, and the 3♥ bid only promised a reasonable 6 card suit.

There is a lot of mixing apples and oranges going on in this thread.

I assumed that a 2♥ rebid would be forcing at least one round. Hence, the only reason to bid 3♥ would be to convey a particular message - solid hearts. By solid I mean AKQJxx or AKQTxxx or better. While the 3♥ bid does not 100% set the trump suit, for all practical purposes the hand will be played in hearts (possibly no trump). It is hard to envision a sequence of bids that will result in the hand being played in a different suit.

With that meaning attached to the 3♥ bid, the responder should cue bid the ♣A.

If all 3♥ does is force to game with a good heart suit, then perhaps 4♥ is the appropriate bid. But, as Ken said in an earlier post, it is hard to see how a 4♣ bid could get you into any trouble.

[mike777]

Assuming we are playing SA and not 2/1 then we need a source to define what a rebid of your suit is after a 2/1 by responder.

Root in his SA book says:
simple rebid =13-16 and a 6 card suit or five card suit provided no other reasonable bid is available.

Jump rebid =17-19 and a good six card suit or longer.
7...AKJ875..A83....A62 would be typical normal hand.

[Gerben42]

The story is this:

You're playing with an expert partner for the first time and play that a 2/1 bid promises a rebid, along with your favorite conventions "keep it simple" and "when in doubt it's natural".

Roland was spot on, partner would cue 4♠ over your 4♣ bid, and in addition 5♥ would be too high on admittedly adverse but not unrealistic breaks.

4♥: Win 12
4♣ and 5♥ over 4♠ cue: Wash
4♣ and 4NT over 4♠ cue: Lose 5 (partner responds 5♠, you bid 6♥ and get doubled)

[ArtK78]

Let's see the hand that rebid 3♥. The 4♣ bid may have led to the bad result, but it remains to be seen whose fault it was.

[Gerben42]

I shouldn't do this since I want to evaluate MY bids not partner's but it was:

---

[ArtK78]

Opener's hand is pretty good, but it is not a 3♥ call in my opinion.

Granted, there are others whose methods would call for a 3♥ call on these cards. If this hand is a 3♥ call in the partnership's methods, it is very difficult to bid the opposite hand.

As I have said in my previous posts, I expected solid hearts from the opening bidder for the 3♥ call. I would have bid 2♥ on opener's hand (assuming that 2♥ is forcing).

By the way, I have seen worse slams. This is not one I want to bid, but with a little bit of luck.....

Slam would be MUCH better if opener had KQJTxxx of hearts (let alone AQJxxxx or something like that). I assume that he would make the same 3♥ call.

[Codo]

I like your pds 3 Heart bid and I understand his 4 Spade bid, after all you don´t cue shortnesses in pds first suit.
I had bid 4 ♣ and failed in 5 Heart.
But well the hands do nit fit well, the club finesse and the hearts are not playable for one looser. So being in 5 Heart had been not the biggest crime in bridge history.
And I really don´t see, why pd with AKx, KQJT9xx,x,Kx had bid different and blamed you for missing 6 ♥ after yours (or Rolands) 4 Heart bid....
Even a 50 % slam with AKx, KQJT9xx,x,Qx is not so bad.....

[skjaeran]

Roland's exaple hand is a clear 3♥ rebid to me if 2♦ isn't GF. Rebidding 2♥ followed later with 3♥ would show a weaker suit or a weaker hand. In the method described I agree with raising to 4♥.

[matmat]

Hannie, on Sep 20 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

4♥, but then, I don't know standard Americanish.

it's a lot like standard Hannish,

4C for me. the problem here though, is that I won't know what to do over p's 4d or 4h calls. i don't think i can budge at all over 4h. 4d is a different problem -- i can't really cue 4s or 5c. that leaves RKC (ewww) or 5H, but doesn't that sort of only ask only for a second round spade control? how do we know p doesn't have a trump loser? hmmm... maybe the practical bid after all is simply 4h?

[SoTired]

Since 2D promises 10+ HCP in SA, 3H announces a good 6+♥ and GF (after the 2/1). It does not promise a "solid suit". AKJ KQxxxxx x Qx qualifies.

Since you don't have a fit for partner, slam is out unless opener's suit is solid. 3N is ridiculous. The bidding requires a spade lead, you don't have a spade stopper and opps have 8+♠. This hand may be a misfit and you don't want to play a misfit in NT.

I think you have 2 choices. Bid 4H and hope your extra strength makes up for your lack of hearts. Bid 4C and try for a 5m contract if partner can support either minor.

Without discussion, the 4C bid is ambiguous. It may be a q-bid, but is likely natural trying to find a better game than 4H. Opener, with good 7♥ and a minimum 3H bid, should bid 4H over 4C anyway.

[jtfanclub]

SoTired, on Sep 21 2007, 11:06 AM, said:

3N is ridiculous. The bidding requires a spade lead, you don't have a spade stopper and opps have 8+♠. This hand may be a misfit and you don't want to play a misfit in NT.

So now the claim is that 3NT shows MORE hearts than 4♥? That you like playing 6-2 and 7-2 fits in NT?

You either have a heart fit, or you don't have a heart fit. If you don't have a heart fit, you don't like playing in no trump. If you do have a heart fit, you'd what, want to play it in no trump? So apparently, you'd never play in NT. You might have a minor suit fit, but you'd never know it anyways. All the more reason for 3NT to warn of a misfit to slow down the auction.

If partner wants to play in 3NT, that's fine by me. It certainly works fine this time. With only 16 hcp for p outside of hearts and him having at least half of those points if he doesn't have a super-solid heart suit, he doesn't have every point outside of spades and none in it. Shocking. I wonder if that's why the opponents aren't bidding?

But I don't expect to play 3NT very often on this sequence. I do expect the information - minimal slam interest at best, misfit in hearts, scattered points - to be used by partner in placing the contract.

Let me put it this way, and then I'm done, I promise. If, as seems clear, most people believe that 3NT isn't going to be a good stopping point no matter what the hands are, then shouldn't 3NT show something other than merely "I wanna play in 3NT"?

If you play Serious 3NT, then 3NT should be a slam try and 4♣ should just be a suit.
If you play Frivolous 3NT, then 3NT should just say "I'm not good enough to make a slam try, but if you are, by all means bid a minor and keep the bidding low". Bidding 4♣ instead of 3NT then shows, well, what your partner thought it showed.

To me, the default is Frivolous...3NT just shows no slam interest, since that's what most game bids mean.

IMHO, 4♥ should be more specific than 3NT, because it's not clear if partner will want to override your bid or not (there aren't many other options for him to bid if he's got a 20 count). I would expect no slam interest, but probably Hx or xxx in hearts. After all, for most people, the GF response with 3 card support over 1♥ is 2 of a minor. This is your only chance to show heart support.

[ArtK78]

The bottom line is that you could be wrong whatever you do. Both hands are promising opposite hands consistent with partner's bidding. But the hands do not fit well at all.

[SoTired]

jtfanclub, on Sep 21 2007, 11:34 AM, said:

SoTired, on Sep 21 2007, 11:06 AM, said:

3N is ridiculous. The bidding requires a spade lead, you don't have a spade stopper and opps have 8+♠. This hand may be a misfit and you don't want to play a misfit in NT.

So now the claim is that 3NT shows MORE hearts than 4♥? That you like playing 6-2 and 7-2 fits in NT?

You either have a heart fit, or you don't have a heart fit.

Of course not. In general, you don't want to play misfits in NT, but with a major fit you want to play in the major. I am telling you why I think 3N will play badly. The main reason you don't bid 3N is the lack of a spade stopper when partner has already shown less than 4♠ and opps will likely lead the suit. If the hand had a sure spade stopper with an unsure club stopper (something like KQx x AJxxxx Jxx), I think 3N would be a good bid.

[skjaeran]

jtfanclub, on Sep 21 2007, 06:34 PM, said:

If you play Serious 3NT, then 3NT should be a slam try and 4♣ should just be a suit.
If you play Frivolous 3NT, then 3NT should just say "I'm not good enough to make a slam try, but if you are, by all means bid a minor and keep the bidding low". Bidding 4♣ instead of 3NT then shows, well, what your partner thought it showed.

To me, the default is Frivolous...3NT just shows no slam interest, since that's what most game bids mean.

IMHO, 4♥ should be more specific than 3NT, because it's not clear if partner will want to override your bid or not (there aren't many other options for him to bid if he's got a 20 count). I would expect no slam interest, but probably Hx or xxx in hearts. After all, for most people, the GF response with 3 card support over 1♥ is 2 of a minor. This is your only chance to show heart support.

Serious or frivolous 3NT only applies AFTER you've found a major suit fit. That's not the case here, so 3NT surely is an offer to play there, which can't be the correct bid with the actual hand, lacking a ♠ stopper which you can't expect partner to regularly hold in this sequence.

3♠ and 4♣ would be a cuebid for me here, so holding the GF hand with 3c support I'd have one of those bids available.

2♦ was clearly defined as not GF. So you could have a decent 10-count on this bidding. You can't be sure that the 5-level is safe. You might make a 4♣ cuebid here, but IMO the hand isn't strong enough. If partner bids 4♠ over 4♥ that's quite another story though.