[Gerben42]

Scoring: IMP

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Basic system: Standard American-ish

1♥ (p) 2♦ (p)
3♥ (p) you?

[Fluffy]

4♣ (cuebid)

[Walddk]

I would just raise to 4♥. It would have been tougher with stronger holdings in the minors. Slam seems far away opposite an average jump rebid.

Roland

[Edmunte1]

Mandatory 4♣ for me

[ArtK78]

4♣ cue bid for me, too.

3♥ announced that hearts are trump. It does not show extras - conceivably, partner could have 6 or 7 solid hearts and little else. But if he has some extras - such as the ♦K and a spade control, we could be claiming 6♥.

In any event, it does not cost anything to cue bid the club ace.

[keylime]

4♣, natural, ready to retreat to 4H if pard insists. I may want to play 6m with hearts as my help suit.

[helene_t]

Agree with Roland. With a stronger hand I might bid 6♣. 4♣ should show a control. Hearts are trump.

[kenrexford]

This is an easy one. I have no idea what the partnership agreements are here, but I cannot imagine any set of agreements existing where 4♣ is hopelessly wrong. It might be wrong, but recoverable.

[cherdano]

For me this is an easy 4♣ bid, as I wouldn't play 3♥ as anything but "setting trumps, invitation to cuebid". If partner has sold trumps, my aces should be great.
If 3♥ might just be showing extras with a so-so 6-card suit, then oh well, you should ask in a British forum not me.

[han]

4♥, but then, I don't know standard Americanish.

[bhall]

There is no agreed interpretation in "Standard American," beyond showing 6+ ♥ and a game force. Soloway suggested using the bid to show solid hearts and no more than one outside control (in the context of 2/1 GF). Ancient practice was to show a suit (and hand) playable in game opposite a small stiff, but too good simply to bid 4♥.

I would go with ancient practice, and cue 4♣. Fortunately, if partner treats the bid as natural, well, I have that, too.

[Walddk]

Those who claim that 3♥ sets the suit seem to forget that 2♦ was not game forcing. 3♥ establishes a game force, but it does not guarantee a solid or semi-solid suit.

If the system had been 2/1 I would agree that hearts are trumps, asking for a cue bid.

Even now 4♣ would be a cue bid in my book. Opener has a one-suiter (no other suit with four cards). I just don't think responder's hand is good enough for a cue bid. There is usually at least one flaw if we were to arrive in 6♥.

Roland

[jtfanclub]

Walddk, on Sep 20 2007, 12:47 PM, said:

Those who claim that 3♥ sets the suit seem to forget that 2♦ was not game forcing. 3♥ establishes a game force, but it does not guarantee a solid or semi-solid suit.

So why is my vote for 3NT a lone voice in the wilderness?

If partner has a broken suit, we can make 3NT easily while 4♥ may or may not have trouble. Am I supposed to be terrified of spades? There's only 8 points available in the minors, so if partner has a broken suit he won't be without spade honors.

I see good arguments for 4♣. I just don't see what the point is of 4♥. 3NT is lower, it may be the right place to play, and IMHO shows my hand better than a 4♥ call does. Partner can always put it in 4♥ if he wants.

[Walddk]

jtfanclub, on Sep 20 2007, 08:10 PM, said:

Walddk, on Sep 20 2007, 12:47 PM, said:

Those who claim that 3♥ sets the suit seem to forget that 2♦ was not game forcing. 3♥ establishes a game force, but it does not guarantee a solid or semi-solid suit.

So why is my vote for 3NT a lone voice in the wilderness?

If partner has a broken suit, we can make 3NT easily while 4♥ may or may not have trouble. Am I supposed to be terrified of spades? There's only 8 points available in the minors, so if partner has a broken suit he won't be without spade honors.

I see good arguments for 4♣. I just don't see what the point is of 4♥. 3NT is lower, it may be the right place to play, and IMHO shows my hand better than a 4♥ call does. Partner can always put it in 4♥ if he wants.

Why would he pull 3NT with

♠ Jx
♥ AKJ10xx
♦ Kx
♣ KQx

He shouldn't be concerned about a (lacking) spade stopper. I would not pull 3NT with that hand. Responder knows what he is doing when he suggests notrumps I hope. I bid my hand (I did already) and let him bid his.

Bidding 4♥ now is the same as saying that you don't trust his judgement.

Roland

[ArtK78]

While 2♦ may not be a game force, it does promise a rebid. So the 3♥ bid cannot be just strength showing. It must be a picture bid - long solid hearts.

With all due respect to Roland, the example hand in the post above is a 2♥ rebid, not a 3♥ rebid.

Admittedly, if one plays that a 2♥ rebid could be passed, then opener must jump to 3♥ with game forcing values. But I hope that is not part of the system we are dealing with in this problem.

[jtfanclub]

Wow, possibly the only possible hand where 3NT is wrong and partner won't pull it.

Jxx
AKJTxx
Kx
Qx

Now 3NT is ice cold and 4♥ may have problems. So what?

Quote

Bidding 4♥ now is the same as saying that you don't trust his judgement.

That's ridiculous.

If partner wants to play in 4♥ across a stiff, and 3NT shows a stiff, then you've lost nothing. Partner will either bid 4♥ or show a hand stronger than an average jump rebid.

If partner wants to play in 4♥ across a small doubleton, and 3NT shows a stiff, then you've gained enormously.

Trust partner's judgement: tell him as much about the hand as you can and let him place the contract. 4♥ is not only making the strain decision for him, it's also making the level decision for him.

IF 3♥ really sets trumps, then 3NT isn't going to get passed anyways, so there's no harm in it.

[ArtK78]

If 3♥ sets hearts as trump, then 3NT cannot be natural. It certainly doesn't make any sense to bid 3NT natural if it cannot be the final contract.

[jtfanclub]

ArtK78, on Sep 20 2007, 02:43 PM, said:

If 3♥ sets hearts as trump, then 3NT cannot be natural. It certainly doesn't make any sense to bid 3NT natural if it cannot be the final contract.

True. Let me rephrase:

If 3♥ sets the suit, then I think 4♥ is a terrible bid. To me, that's more of a 10 count with a doubleton heart kind of bid, and my hand is much, much stronger than that. 4♣ seems obvious to me, but maybe not to others.

If I can't decide whether my partner intended to set hearts as trump, then I believe 3NT is the better bid.

[bhall]

I disagree with Roland, but for a different reason: 3♥ is not so limited a bid in shape or size. If opener holds a spade stiff or the spade ace, slam in a minor should have good odds. A sequence like 4♣-4♦-4♥-4♠-6♣ would pretty clearly offer a choice of 3 slams, and a minimum 3♥ bidder might hold AJx AKJ10xx Kxx x or x AKJ10xx Kxx KQx.

Another point: Given the wide variation in current practice regarding the quality of the ♥ suit, 6♥ could be the only failing slam. Who says he holds the ♥J, rather than some other card? I have seen national champs make the 3♥ rebid on AJ109xx and worse.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Sep 20 2007, 02:37 PM, said:

Wow, possibly the only possible hand where 3NT is wrong and partner won't pull it.

Jxx
AKJTxx
Kx
Qx

Now 3NT is ice cold and 4♥ may have problems.

The problem is that Roland's example is a 3♥ rebid in standard american (despite those who say it isn't - mixing up methods they think are good with what is standard), but your example is a 2♥ rebid.