[csdenmark]

Sad to acknowledge. Once again we see several persons claiming solid skill levels seems unable to understand what the intended distinction between below really is:

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion
For our novice to intermediate members to discuss issues and share advice (and for more skilled players to answer questions

and

Advanced and Expert-Class Bridge
Forum designated for experienced and adept bridge players to discuss more advanced topics.

[kenberg]

Yesterday I did some kibitzing, watching world class players (really). In one auction a player bid 4NT taken as ace asking (or kc asking) but not intended as ace asking. In another game the auction began 1N-(2D), the diamond bid showing a hand with one major. On a later round his partner bid 4H, doubled by the NT opener, and the 2D bidder had to decide whether this showed hearts only or was pass/correct. He guessed wrong. Both stories ended well: In the first they arrived at 6H making, in the second they got to 5HX, a good sac against the making 5C. But they were skating on thin ice. Never mind who, but trust me that it is impossible to claim these players don't know bridge. So I support all and everyone who have been saying that after you get the basic list then spend some time knowing when they are on/off, when they should be used, what the follow-up bids are and all things of that order. Experts will screw this up at times so perfection is unlikely, but w/o discussion the screw ups will be far more frequent.

There is a difference between "advice to intermediates who want to form a developing partnership" and "advice to intermediates, or anyone, who want to play a few hands on line with a random partner". In the second case, the fewer conventions the better. In the first case, agree upon a source (book, person or website) for guidance on how the convention is played. On bbo, you could agree to read bobh's notes, for example, and agree that any convention you adopt will be played just as he says, and to ask his advice on anything that is unclear. Or go to the csdenmark site. Or a site of your choice. Or you could buy a book with an extended discussion of the convention you choose (both buying the same book). Also, some conventions work together smoothly, others clash. Some thought or guidance is needed with this.

[ArcLight]

Here is an artcile by Larry Cohen

"What Conventions should we Play"

http://www.larryco.com/BG%20articles/A13--...20We%20Play.htm

[surprisingly he puts the 2NT ask over pards weak 2 as #4]

One thing I noticed is very few people listed a defense over NT. I consider that more important than many secondary conventions (like Inverted Minors) that I see people listed.


Also, Splinters are so easy to use and so commonly used, I'm surprised not to see them higher up on peoples lists.


Last point - agreeing on signaling.
So many times I sit at a table and ask pard
"what defensive signaling do you use?
Attitude?
Count?
Suit Preference?
UDCA or Standard?
4th best leads OK?
Standard carding?"

And the "intermediate" doesn't know what any of that is. They assume signaling = Attitude. Thats fine as long as I am made aware of it.
Many "advanced" players don't know any of that.



The REAL advice to give to the intermediate player is:

1) learn the basic carding conventions (4th best leads, lowest from touching cards when following, basic stuff) plus basic signaling so that you can do #2

2) focus 100% on counting - forget 100% of anything else including card play technique

3) learn basic card play technique - read books like Mollos Card Play technique, Klingers Card Play Made Easy, Kelseys Winning Card Play, Mike Lawrences CDS Private Lessons 1,2

lastly

4) start with just a few conventions (say 5) and learn all the responses, not just the first round, plus how to deal with interference. 1S p 2NT (3D), ???

Counting, and knowing carding and basic technique will make you a much better defender than most "advanced" players, adn you will be defending around half the time.

[jillybean]

Robert, on Dec 5 2006, 11:26 PM, said:

Hi jillybean2

nmf is normally played after a 1NT rebid(many also play it after a natural 2NT rebid)

4sf is used when the partnership has bid three suits.

Thanks,
I play checkback stayman and had forgotten when nmf is used. Checkback seems to have a slight advantage over nmf in that responder can show inviational or game force.

[sceptic]

Quote

Am I wrong when I claim that in most instances all those conventions appear on the profiles because the users want to impress other people?

I think you are wrong to be honest Roland, I think may be a better more realistic reason would be that they become more accepted on BBO as a pick up partner, in the MBC, I used to state conventions on my profile, looking for people to PRACTICE the convention with, not impress them with.


but then I am an eternal optimist

[Elianna]

csdenmark, on Dec 6 2006, 04:09 AM, said:

Sad to acknowledge. Once again we see several persons claiming solid skill levels seems unable to understand what the intended distinction between below really is:

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion
For our novice to intermediate members to discuss issues and share advice (and for more skilled players to answer questions

and

Advanced and Expert-Class Bridge
Forum designated for experienced and adept bridge players to discuss more advanced topics.

If you don't like a thread, you don't have to post in it. And if you find it really problematic, you can complain to a moderator.

[awm]

While I don't consider myself beginner or intermediate, I'm involved with teaching a number of aspiring young bridge players (I help coach the UCLA collegiate bridge team). While they do have bridgebase accounts, I haven't seen any of these players posting to the forums.

Since a number of the beginners need my help in learning some bidding skills, and the intermediates have asked me which conventions they should learn/play, I felt it'd be useful to open that topic up to discussion. This is an area where intermediate players may perhaps have more valuable input than experts as to which conventions are useful and easy to learn. And I thought the advice of our expert players (particularly those with substantial bridge teaching experience) might be valuable to the beginner/intermediate community.

If the intent of this forum was that no advanced/expert caliber player, under any circumstances, should start a thread (as csdenmark seems to be implying) then my apologies. On the other hand, I'm far from the first to do so. I think this thread has substantial relevence to those wanting to learn some methods to improve their bidding.

[jocdelevat]

My intermediate opinion for what a B/I player must know
1. most important count points per team and know the points necesary for game , slam or less level bids.
2. paterns of hands
3.negative and take out doubles
4. stayman,transfer to majors, blackwood
I agree with posters that recomends first to know the basic which I still find out that some basic stuff I do not know.
I disagree with posters which suggest not to learn more than basic conventions. I think if you learn a convention it is easy after to judge the level of biding and the patern of hand. Extra of this you'll play better defense if you know what opps tallk about. For exemple I do not know polish club and precision I know a bit when I play against opps with this system I have hard time defending.
I like to put in my profile every convention I know and I think is good . Not to show but to let know advance and higher players what I play.

[Vilgan]

I started playing about a year ago... so being a "new" player is a fairly fresh experience for me.

Some of the comments like "just learn how to play, don't worry about conventions" are imo rather patronizing. Most conventions are not complicated, and they make the process of bidding easier rather than harder. Admittedly you don't want to start playing everything at the same time.. just keep adding something every 2-3 sessions or whatever rate makes you comfortable. However, they are not big scary complex things and serve people of ALL skill levels equally.

Another thing I disagree with is the comment about omg learn count. As I phased out of intermediate status, I started playing count and I LOVE it. It is incredibly frustrating now for me playing with someone who does not show count. However, (again, imo) count is something that you start doing when you feel ready for it. Its great for visualizing the hand layout/distribution of the 2 hands you can't see... but when you are still learning the game there are plenty of clues in the way people play.. signals etc, that you can usually find the right play even without knowing if declarer is 5/4/2/2 or 5/3/3/2. When you are comfortable with the game to the point that you are starting to picture the other 2 hands in your mind, then count is awesome. But when mentoring newer players who have enough on their minds already, count falls by the wayside for a good while imo.

Eric

[csdenmark]

awm, on Dec 7 2006, 06:10 AM, said:

If the intent of this forum was that no advanced/expert caliber player, under any circumstances, should start a thread (as csdenmark seems to be implying) then my apologies. On the other hand, I'm far from the first to do so. I think this thread has substantial relevence to those wanting to learn some methods to improve their bidding.

Certainly not - but as far as I can see most posters seems very eager to inform what they do themselves, mostly forgetting to state the reasons. In that way much posting is nothing but spam. They ought to have the skills carefully to direct their advice to the audience. When advanced+ players post in this sector they ought to try to reach out.

[csdenmark]

awm, on Dec 7 2006, 06:10 AM, said:

While I don't consider myself beginner or intermediate, I'm involved with teaching a number of aspiring young bridge players (I help coach the UCLA collegiate bridge team). While they do have bridgebase accounts, I haven't seen any of these players posting to the forums.

It is a problem you point to here. I was contacted by one yesterday who asked me to address Fred to create a Bulletin Board. So in fact not all interested have the knowledge of the existence of BBO Forum.

Another problem some may wonder is why more than 4000 registered members in this Forum and only about 100-200 posting here. I doubt the intensions of BBO Forum had that kind of limitations in mind.

[Cascade]

I am a bit late entering this thread but here is my list of some useful conventions.

As an intermediate you probably already play these conventions:

Strong 2C and 2D Negative (or Waiting)
Stayman
Transfers - I could live without transfers
Takeout Doubles
Negative Doubles
Some Minor Suit Responses to 1NT - you could live without conventions here as long as you have some sensible agreements
Blackwood and Gerber
Some Artificial 2NT and rebid structure over weak twos - feature showing or Oghust

Here are some that I would add if you do not play them already:

Various uses of a cue-bid of opponents suit
- cue-raise
- cue asking for a stopper (DAB Directional Asking Bid)
- cue showing a good hand in response to takeout double etc

Strong minor suit raise - SAYC lacks a forcing minor suit raise
- A simple solution is criss-cross 1D 3C and 1C 2D are forcing minor suit raises

Fourth Suit Forcing - the continuations will need some discussion

Various Slam Conventions
- Control showing Cue-bids including agreements about when a bid is a cue

Other Conventions that are useful but you can get by without:

Checkback Stayman (or New Minor Forcing - NMF) - I prefer Checkback and it is a simple convention to add.

Michaels Cue-Bid

Unusual 2NT

Splinters - both by responder and opener

Roman Key Card Blackwood

5NT pick-a-slam

A defense to 1NT - I like Landy but would be happy play DONT or something else especially if strong NT is prevalent where you play

Lebensohl or some variation on it - actually I don't especially like Lebensohl because it hides your suit from partner so that partner will not be well placed if there is further competition

2NT showing two places to play in some balancing auctions or responding to a balancing double - not essential but interesting logic

Note these aren't necessarily what I consider the best conventions but are ones that should be achievable by good advancing bridge players.

[ArcLight]

>Some of the comments like "just learn how to play, don't worry about conventions" are imo rather patronizing.

Actually they are sound advice. I see people in BIL (the beginner intermediate lounge) listing all sorts of conventions they don't need and mis-using others. They are not helping themselves. They are mis directing their efforts.
Based on what I see in BIL beginners are not taught fundamentals.
A new player will do just as well if they don't use J2NT or Inverted Minors or Leb, etc. They need to learn basics.
Many Intermediates are not really intermediates. They think they are becaus ethey know some conventions, but their card play, counting, and visualization is weak and they don't realize it.

[I'm sure Adam's students don't fit this criteria as he would work with them to correct fundamentals]


>Most conventions are not complicated, and they make the process of bidding easier rather than harder.

Any one convention is no problem to learn. The problem is when:
- conventions have variations that the pick up pards haven't discussed and may not even be aware of. Do you play Drury? Reverse Drury, Regular Drury, Bergen Drury? What does a 4 Club response to a Jacoby 2NT response mean? Is it a void? a GOOD 5 card suit? What defines GOOD?

- do you know ALL the follow ups to the convention? People list RKCBW, but don't know how to ask for Queens. What does 5NT mean? Is it SPECIFIC kings, or just number of kings?

- how many conventions are you using? If just a few then complexity is no problem. If using 27, and half of them rarely come up, will you remember what that means?
1NT - 4♠
? What the heck is pards 4♠? I gues its a transfer to Clubs. 5♣
OOps! I forgot we were playing Baron, and it was a balanced 17HCP.
WIth just 15 HCP and 4 clubs we ended up down 1 in a bad slam.



> Admittedly you don't want to start playing everything at the same time.. just keep adding something every 2-3 sessions or whatever rate makes you comfortable.

Thats a 100% sure recipe for mistakes and forgetting conventions. You need a regular pard, and still certain conventions don't come up all that often.
It is necessary to practice a convention, but don't look for a silver bullet.


> However, they are not big scary complex things and serve people of ALL skill levels equally.

One convention is not scary. 38 are. In addition, you study a convention, think you know it, then gradually forget parts of it. One day, 11 months later this comes up:
p p 1♥ p
2♠ p ?
What is 2♠? We play Drury, what is CHO doing? Mini-Splinter?
Oh, I forgot thats a passed hand fit jump, pard has heart support and a nice spade suit.


2♠ p 2NT p,
3♣ p 3S
making 4
pard held: SP: KQxxxx H: xx D: x C: Axxx
He was playing feature ask/show, you were palying Ogust


>Another thing I disagree with is the comment about omg learn count.

You misread it.
Learn TO count.
Count signals help, but learning to count even with out them is key.


>As I phased out of intermediate status, I started playing count and I LOVE it. It is incredibly frustrating now for me playing with someone who does not show count. However, (again, imo) count is something that you start doing when you feel ready for it. Its great for visualizing the hand layout/distribution of the 2 hands you can't see... but when you are still learning the game there are plenty of clues in the way people play.. signals etc, that you can usually find the right play even without knowing if declarer is 5/4/2/2 or 5/3/3/2. When you are comfortable with the game to the point that you are starting to picture the other 2 hands in your mind, then count is awesome. But when mentoring newer players who have enough on their minds already, count falls by the wayside for a good while imo.

Whan mentoring new players you should focus 100% on getting them to count.
They can learn technique from books. Counting is what takes practice.
They can read books on defense that will help visualization. But they can't play defense well without counting.


>I started playing about a year ago... so being a "new" player is a fairly fresh experience for me.
>As I phased out of intermediate status,

If you are advanced after just 1 year then you show great promise.

[hrothgar]

ArcLight, on Dec 7 2006, 05:21 PM, said:

Any one convention is no problem to learn.  The problem is when:
- conventions have variations that the pick up pards haven't discussed and may not even be aware of.  Do you play Drury?  Reverse Drury, Regular Drury, Bergen Drury?  What does a 4 Club response to a Jacoby 2NT response mean?  Is it a void?  a GOOD 5 card suit?  What defines GOOD?

- do you know ALL the follow ups to the convention?  People list RKCBW, but don't know how to ask for Queens.  What does 5NT mean?  Is it SPECIFIC kings, or just number of kings?

- how many conventions are you using?  If just a few then complexity is no problem.  If using 27, and half of them rarely come up, will you remember what that means?
1NT - 4♠

None of the points that you are making has much do to do with conventions per see.

The set of all possible bids can be represented as a tree.

Most bidding sequences can be represented as a undirectional path through this tree. (The only notable exception is when you accept an unsufficient bid)

A bidding system can be defined as a set of nodes within this tree. As bidding systems become more comprehensive, they add specific definitions to more and more nodes in the bididng tree.

You seem to be arguing that remembering the meaning of individual bidding sequence is somehow more difficult if bids are conventional and easier if bids are natural. I don't see any reason to believe that this is true. Furthermore, I can make a convincing argument that the converse holds true. (If your real concern is making sure that your bidding system is easy to remember you should be playing a relay system)

First of all, there is no reason why a natural bid is any easier to remember than a conventional. Yes, natural bids promise length in the suit that your bidding. However, there's still a 1001 other issues that you need to concern yourself with (minimum length, maximum length, negative inferences, strength, etc.) The fact that your natural 2♣ response to a 1M opening happens to promise 3+ Clubs really doesn't reduce memory load by any appreciable amount.

Equally significant: The complexity of a bidding system can be represented by the length of the rules set necessary to describe all of the defined bidding sequences. I'd be more than happy to create a rules system for a bidding system based on symmetric relay. If we normalize the length of the rules set based on the number of sequences defined Symmetric Relay will beat any natural system hands down. (It might even win on an absolute comparision). I'd also argue that the relay based approach would be much more effective that any simple/condensed system that you care to introduce...

There is a reason why I brought up the relay example: Conventions don't exist in a vacuum. It is rare that someone goes and says. "I'm bored. I think that I'm going to create some god awful structure and splice it onto our 3♠ opening". Conventions are conciously engineered to solve specfic bidding problems. There may be some investment upfront understanding what a convention is designed to do and how the system was designed. However, once you've spent a bit of time its usually pretty easy to understand whats going on. Moreover, you now get to sidestep that whole world of hurt that lead to the creation of this convention.

Last and not least, in many cases, explictly reducing memory load is one of the design criteria for a convention. People conciously structure these things so there is internal logic and consistency. This is why relay systems are so "dense". A very small rules set is able to describe an enormous number of bids.

[zasanya]

csdenmark, on Dec 7 2006, 05:10 AM, said:

So in fact not all interested have the knowledge of the existence of BBO Forum.

Another problem some may wonder is why more than 4000 registered members in this Forum and only about 100-200 posting here. I doubt the intensions of BBO Forum had that kind of limitations in mind.

100-200? More like 20-25?

[pclayton]

My stepmother plays Goren. If I am teaching her how bidding in the 21st century works, I would show her these treatments in order:

0. The best 'conventions' are carding agreements. I would spend a lot of time on what card means x in whatever situation; count, suit preference, attitude, honor leads, etc..

1. Weak 2 bids and their continuations (RONF and Ogust). We would also discuss 2♦ over 2♣ waiting and double negatives. Its strange, I've seen a lot of the 'masses' play weak 2's, but with 2♣ and Jacoby Modern responses

2. The NT Engine. Jacoby Transfers, explanation of stayman sequences and the brackets of balanced hands from 12 to 27 HCP. I'd also discuss 2♠ and 3 of a new suit in response to 1N. Lebensohl, Smolen, Texas, and running out from 1N doubled can wait. I'd also add in a gambling 3N opener, since its an obvious question how to play it.

3. Negative doubles and weak jump overcalls. With the exception of Michaels and U2NT, I wouldn't add anything else in the competive bidding side, except Jordan.

4. Major Suit Raises. I'd add in limit raises, Jacoby and splinters.

Next stage (after 0 through 4 is mastered):

5. 2/1 Structure with Forcing NT's. Treatments by passed hands including Rev Drury and Flower Bids. Invitiational JS's.

6. 4th suit forcing and NMF structure; and invitational jumps.

7. A toy over 1N openings such as Woolsey or Meckwell. I won't teach anyone Capp.

8. Inverted Minors. I'm fine if she doesn't drop SJS.

9. Responsive and (gasp) support doubles.

10. Key Card Blackwood, DOPI and ROPI.

I honestly think its takes a decent player a full year to get all 10 of these down competently. After all 10 of these are mastered, and she wants to learn more, we'd work on others. I can think of 40 other things I like, but they aren't ia priority.

If I was working with an INT that had a good working knowledge of SAYC (which includes some of the above), this would still be my top 10 list, but I'd present it in a different order probably.

[inquiry]

zasanya, on Dec 7 2006, 11:17 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Dec 7 2006, 05:10 AM, said:

So in fact not all interested have the knowledge of the existence of BBO Forum.

Another problem some may wonder is why more than 4000 registered members in this Forum and only about 100-200 posting here. I doubt the intensions of BBO Forum had that kind of limitations in mind.

100-200? More like 20-25?

1536 forum members have posted at least once.
42 forum members have ovre 1000 post (and one is at 996)
1 forum member has over 9000 post

[csdenmark]

inquiry, on Dec 7 2006, 08:51 PM, said:

zasanya, on Dec 7 2006, 11:17 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Dec 7 2006, 05:10 AM, said:

So in fact not all interested have the knowledge of the existence of BBO Forum.

Another problem some may wonder is why more than 4000 registered members in this Forum and only about 100-200 posting here. I doubt the intensions of BBO Forum had that kind of limitations in mind.

100-200? More like 20-25?

1536 forum members have posted at least once.

Thank you Ben for this information. We therefore now know that 3000 persons have registered but posted nothing. As the only reason for registering is to be able to post I think BBO Forum has a problem - a nice problem of course - but a problem which need to be dealt with.

But Ben my figures was an assumption of regular users, at least 1 per month or so.

[awm]

Two conventions that I think are being a bit undersold here:

Fourth suit force. Several people have mentioned this, but often put it fairly low on the list. This is a convention that comes up a lot, especially in a system where 2/1 bids are not forcing to game. For example: 1♠-2♣-2♦, what's responder's next call? It's actually more likely that responder has a game force than not. Yet in SAYC, 2♠ is a non-forcing preference, 2NT is invitational, 3♣ and 3♦ are not forcing. While 3♠ is forcing it certainly agrees spades. So how do we look for slam? How do we avoid 3NT if no one has a heart stopper? I think these are pretty basic questions, and the answer to both is 2♥ 4th suit forcing. Of course, 4th suit force is a fairly basic convention and a part of SAYC, so perhaps it's more of a "beginner" level thing to learn. But it's extremely important. If I had to list conventions I absolutely couldn't imagine playing without, 4th suit force would be on the list. Weak two bids, blackwood/rkc, and new minor force would not be on the list.

Lebensohl. This is a single convention that comes up in many different places (commonly over interference to 1NT, over partner's takeout double of a weak two, and over our own reverses). It solves a pretty serious problem in standard bidding (how do you know when partner has a good hand versus a hand that's just bidding competitively). While experts disagree about a lot of things (you can find people who hate inverted minors, or forcing notrump, or game forcing 2/1s, or any particular defense to 1NT), lebensohl seems fairly universal on expert CCs. Of course you can argue that it's marginal better to play different methods in the three situations (some kind of rubensohl/transfer lebensohl over 1NT interference, ingberman or some kind of relay over reverses) but virtually everyone agrees that lebensohl is a substantial improvement over "no conventional treatment" in the auctions where it comes up. Of course, lebensohl is a convention I could do without, but after getting the bare necessities down (negative doubles, stayman, fourth suit force) I think it should be pretty high on the list.

[gwnn]

While we're at it, I'm sure Feature Ask 2NT is easier to grasp and remember than Ogust. Plus, gives opener a distinct pride to bid "3♣! I have the club King!"