[jocdelevat]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  1♣
 Pass  2NT   Pass  3NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Hi all
My level B/I playing SAYC
My pard level intermediate with profile:blackwood,gerber, stayman,transfers to majors, weak 2's, 2c strong. My pard was south and I was north.Questions:
1. what you bid after my 2nt?
2.my 2nt bid was corect or not(someone at tbl suggest to bid directly 4nt for aces)
3. what should be the corect biding if we play my pard profile.


P.S I find the topic what convetions intermediates should know very intersting so I post this board that I play with an intermediate with limited conventions.

[HeartA]

With SAYC, I assume 1C-3C is forcing (1C-2C is simple raise and less than 10 HCP). I would bid 3C with North's hand. The bidding would go like this:
1C - 3C
3H/D - 3S
4NT - 5H
6C

Or South can directly bid 4NT after North's 3C. Without RKC, it is not easy to get to grand.

[inquiry]

In SAYC I don't think there is a forcing minor suit raise (one of many problems with SAYC), so with north's hand it is 2NT (yuk) or a creative 1♦. I would be creative here, but sadly that hits parnter in the wrong spot....

This is heavily double dummy since i can see all the hands, but then, i am forced to bid SAYC... yuck

1♣ = 1♦
2♥ = 4♣*
4♦ = 4♠
4NT = 5♣
5♦ = 7♣


1. 1D prepared bid, to force in clubs next round
2. 2H reverse
3. 3♣ would be forcing, this is strong slam try, set trumps
4. 4♦/4♠ = cuebids
5. 4NT = RKCB for clubs
6. 5C is using 03,14
7. 5D ask for trump queen, promise all ohter controls, and shows grand slam interest
8. 7C I have the club queen, I have a fifth club, and even teh spade jack might be useful... don't invite me unless you are serious.

You could go slower, but starting 1♦ then forcing in clubs seems right under the SAYC restraints.

Ok, the 2♥ reverse might not be your cup of tea... try this one

1C - 1D
1H - 2S (or however you 4th suit force on this auction, or 3C if that is GF)
3S - 4C (set trumps, and some play as RKCB itself... go from here).

[neilkaz]

Having posted in the convention thread in this forum that outside of much of BBO Standard or SAYC, invm is the most important convention to learn, we can now see an example of why I made that statement.

While a direct 2NT jump is supposed to show 13-15 in SAYC many play it as 11-12 invite instead. If it shows 13-15 then the opener has to wake up to the slam potential and not show a balanced min with 3NT.

The main difficulties for inters. learning or playing invm, or anyone playing with a pickup is that there are many different response structures played.

With that in mind and being that I play in MBC almost nightly and see some horrendous minor suit bidding, I'd love to see more details for BBO Basic and Advanced for some of the listed conventions, like invm. ..and yeah..I will volunteer my time, if desired, to help.

I don't want to sound like a no-it-all, but invm should get one to make successful slam tries here as should realizing that opener's hand opposite a 13-15 pt rather balanced hand lacking a 4 card major has enough potential to at least flash a couple of slam signals.

[neilkaz]

In SAYC..1♣-2NT (13-15) -3♥ slam interest and Q bid,-3♠- Q bid and I like my hand for slam - 4NT Blackwood (RKC is not part of SAYC) -5♥ two aces after which opener may sign off in 6♣ or if he dares a king ask, bids 6NT after 6♦ since making 7♣ requires just the perfect 13-15 hand as dummy. (although dummy could take a shot at 7♣ after the 5NT bid since he loves his hand knowing opener has 2 aces and grand interest.)

Playing just Blackwood, it doesn't make too much sense to ask for aces if just interested in a small slam, since responder must have the ace of spades (a stiff or void is inconsistant with his 2NT call) so you are committed to 6 anyhow.

If you add RKCB to SAYC you can find out that you have all the keys and the Q and take a shot at 7 along lines shown by Ben.

The key here is for opener to love his hand after hearing that responder has 13-15 balanced, whether that be shown by 2NT or 3NT as played by many.

.. neilkaz .

[temp3600]

1. After 1♣ 2NT, I would bid 4NT.

3. With the north hand, I would fake a 1♦ first response and then show a game forcing hand with clubs.
1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 3♣, if 3♣ is game forcing. We should be on our way to slam.

If 3♣ is invitational only, then I have to go through :
1♣ 1♦
1♥ 1♠
3♠ 4♣

1♠ is fourth suit forcing, and 4♣ finally sets clubs as trumps.

[P_Marlowe]

In short: This is not a hand to reach slam in a
sensible way for pickup B/I partnership.

1) 3NT
2NT showed 10-12 bal. non forcing,
i have no ambition to get any higher

2) 2NT is wrong, since you want to reach
game and 2NT can be passed
4NT is wrong since you dont have an idea
that opener has better than min. opener

Since you dont have a forcing raise of
a minor (inv. minor), your best bid is 3NT,
which shows 13-15 bal.

3) 1C - 3NT
pass (1)

(1) opener may or may not bid 4NT as
quantitative, but responder will pass,
since he has a min. response in the
context of his bidding.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I was unaware, that 2NT showed 13-15 bal.
in SAYC, but even if you risk it and your partner
knows this, a very risky proposition, I doubt, that
you should leave the safe port of 3NT, afterall
responder may bid 2NT with 3-3-4-3 and you may
not even have a 8 card.

[P_Marlowe]

temp3600, on Dec 7 2006, 02:50 AM, said:

1. After 1♣ 2NT, I would bid 4NT.

3. With the north hand, I would fake a 1♦ first response and then show a game forcing hand with clubs.
1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 3♣, if 3♣ is game forcing. We should be on our way to slam.

If 3♣ is invitational only, then I have to go through :
1♣ 1♦
1♥ 1♠
3♠ 4♣

1♠ is fourth suit forcing, and 4♣ finally sets clubs as trumps.

1S in your given seq. is quite often played as natural
in a 5 card mayor context, which means playing with
a stranger you may well end up in a spade contract,
on the given hands you make 6S, but ...

Of course assuming that 4C sets trumps and is
not interpreted as some kind of Gerber is also a nice
proposition.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[MikeRJ]

In a pesimistic mood I would pass - worried about getting too high with weak trumps.

The only forward going bid I would consider is 4NT, hopefully taken as natural. Bidding 4C may work out badly if taken as Gerber (when I do not know if partner has extras, or whether he is cue bidding, or showing Aces). 4C also risks getting too high with weak trumps.

Incidentally if I was one of the opponents playing against a pick up partnership I would be happy for the 1C opener to ask whether 2NT was limit or GF. How do others feel about this?

Mike

[temp3600]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 7 2006, 03:10 AM, said:

temp3600, on Dec 7 2006, 02:50 AM, said:

1. After 1♣ 2NT, I would bid 4NT.

3. With the north hand, I would fake a 1♦ first response and then show a game forcing hand with clubs.
1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 3♣, if 3♣ is game forcing. We should be on our way to slam.

If 3♣ is invitational only, then I have to go through :
1♣ 1♦
1♥ 1♠
3♠ 4♣

1♠ is fourth suit forcing, and 4♣ finally sets clubs as trumps.

1S in your given seq. is quite often played as natural
in a 5 card mayor context, which means playing with
a stranger you may well end up in a spade contract,
on the given hands you make 6S, but ...

Of course assuming that 4C sets trumps and is
not interpreted as some kind of Gerber is also a nice
proposition.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Well to be fair, since I assumed 1♠ would not be misunderstood, 4♣ can't be Gerber.

The hand does become more difficult if I'm not sure whether 1♣ 2NT shows 11-12 or 13-15, if 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 3♣ will be taken as invitational or game forcing, and if 1♣ 1♦ 1♥ 1♠ will be understood as fourth suit forcing or natural.

[csdenmark]

MikeRJ, on Dec 7 2006, 04:41 PM, said:

Incidentally if I was one of the opponents playing against a pick up partnership I would be happy for the 1C opener to ask whether 2NT was limit or GF. How do others feel about this?

Mike

I don't play SAYC and don't know the specific meaning of this jump. I would be happy for info but I chance my own holding and have no intensions to ask myself. If a convention card available I think I would consult.

[whereagles]

If I recall correctly, in sayc 1♣-3♣ is invitational and 1♣-2NT is balanced 13+ or something like that.

Under these circumstances I think I'd "solve" the issue like this

1♣ 2NT
4NT 6NT

4NT = quantitative

I think you can't get better than this without gadgets, guessing or being funny (e.g. bid 1♣-1♦).

[hrothgar]

I'm going to make a post that i suspect will be rather unpopular:

Given the conditions that you describe

1. pickup partner
2. limited agreements
3 very simple system

I would have opened 1NT. In my mind, then main flaw with the opening is not the shape, but rather that I am slightly too strong. (This is a very nice 17 count). I think that we will be better positioned to find the right contract after a 1NT opening than after 1♣. If you can't stomach opening 1NT with a stiff, then 1♠ also looks better than 1♣.

Even so, 1♣ is certainly more than reasonable. Moreover, its the bid that you chose, so...

The first issue that you need to sort out is whether a 2NT response is forcing or not. The SAYC community seems split on this topic. Personally, I prefer to interprete SAYC based on the ACBL's original SAYC documents. SAYC is a crappy system. Its only virtue is consistency. This really needs to be preserved. (If folks want to modify the system thats all fine and dandy. Just call it something new). The ACBL's SAYC documents clearly define 2NT as forcing. So I interprete it that way.

Sadly, the SAYC documents goes dark at this point in time. I know that we're in a game force, but we really don't have many sequences defined. I'd suggest the following

3N should be natural and non-forcing showing 12-14 balanced
3♠ should show 5+ Clubs and 4 Spades, but not promise extra strength
3♥ should show 5+ Clubs and 4 Hearts, but not promise extra strength
3♦ should show 5+ Clubs and 4 Diamonds, but not promise extra strength
3♣ is temporizing and could be based on a number of hand types. Strong balanced. 3 suited. Long clubs...

You might produce a sequence like the following

1♣ - 2N
3♣ - 3♠
4♦

with 3♠ and 4♦ as cue bids...

[csdenmark]

jocdelevat, on Dec 7 2006, 05:53 AM, said:

Dealer: East Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ AJ5 ♥ 42 ♦ 964 ♣ AKQT4 ♠ KQ98 ♥ AKT3 ♦ A ♣ J863

West  North East  South

 -     -     Pass  1♣
 Pass  2NT   Pass  3NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Hi all
My level B/I playing SAYC
My pard level intermediate with profile:blackwood,gerber, stayman,transfers to majors, weak 2's, 2c strong. My pard was south and I was north.Questions:
1. what you bid after my 2nt?
2.my 2nt bid was corect or not(someone at tbl suggest to bid directly 4nt for aces)
3. what should be the corect biding if we play my pard profile.


P.S I find the topic what convetions intermediates should know very intersting so I post this board that I play with an intermediate with limited conventions.

According to default convention cards from BBO, SAYC and 201, it is so:

1♣-2NT=INV (11-12) | No 4 card major | Balanced
1♣-3NT=GF (13-15) | No 4 card major | Balanced

Bug in default convention cards or misinformation?

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Dec 7 2006, 07:10 PM, said:

According to default convention cards from BBO, SAYC and 201, it is so:

1♣-2NT=INV (11-12) | No 4 card major | Balanced
1♣-3NT=GF (13-15) | No 4 card major | Balanced

Bug in default convention cards or misinformation?

Neither...

Susan Doty spent a lot of time designing FD files for a basic 5 card major system. She made a deliberate choice to define the sequence 1♣ - 2NT as natural and non-forcing. From a system design perspective I see pluses and minuses to this choice. As I noted in an earlier posting, the SAYC community seems to be split regarding the meaning of this bid.

I just wish that she had called the system something other than SAYC.

I'd be happy with "Standard American" or "Standard" or "Bridge Base Basic" or even B^3... However, it seems a lot easier to sidestep the whole SAYC nomenclature.

[csdenmark]

hrothgar, on Dec 7 2006, 06:23 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Dec 7 2006, 07:10 PM, said:

According to default convention cards from BBO, SAYC and 201, it is so:

1♣-2NT=INV (11-12) | No 4 card major | Balanced
1♣-3NT=GF (13-15) | No 4 card major | Balanced

Bug in default convention cards or misinformation?

Neither...

Susan Doty spent a lot of time designing FD files for a basic 5 card major system. She made a deliberate choice to define the sequence 1♣ - 2NT as natural and non-forcing. From a system design perspective I see pluses and minuses to this choice. As I noted in an earlier posting, the SAYC community seems to be split regarding the meaning of this bid.

I just wish that she had called the system something other than SAYC.

I'd be happy with "Standard American" or "Standard" or "Bridge Base Basic" or even B^3... However, it seems a lot easier to sidestep the whole SAYC nomenclature.

Fine with that. I think the neccesary problems must be corrected. It is some of the most important convention cards and I think it is an obligation to have at least these standard system convention cards correct according to the most frequent used descriptions.

Well it is perhaps just to contact Susan - then I hope you will do so Richard.

Nevertheless BBO must have a default convention card named SAYC. I think Fred ought to be informed and I assume he will be in favor of corrections to avoid confusings here. I think all see that too many bugs or inaccuracies will be an independent argument for not to use. I also think ACBL with a policy of conventions cards as mandatory has a clear interest in a correction here.

[neilkaz]

hrothgar, on Dec 7 2006, 10:23 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Dec 7 2006, 07:10 PM, said:

According to default convention cards from BBO, SAYC and 201, it is so:

1♣-2NT=INV (11-12) | No 4 card major | Balanced
1♣-3NT=GF (13-15) | No 4 card major | Balanced

Bug in default convention cards or misinformation?

Neither...

Susan Doty spent a lot of time designing FD files for a basic 5 card major system. She made a deliberate choice to define the sequence 1♣ - 2NT as natural and non-forcing. From a system design perspective I see pluses and minuses to this choice. As I noted in an earlier posting, the SAYC community seems to be split regarding the meaning of this bid.

I just wish that she had called the system something other than SAYC.

I'd be happy with "Standard American" or "Standard" or "Bridge Base Basic" or even B^3... However, it seems a lot easier to sidestep the whole SAYC nomenclature.

Yes, but the notes we can quickly reach under BB-Basic show 1m-2NT as 13-15 and therefore forcing.

At the risk of beating a dead horse and I've done it in two threads about this, I must stress my strong opinion that any system that doesn't have a decent way to force in the opened minor suit has a serious flaw.

In SAYC 1m-3m is a limit raise, but playing the intended 13-15 2NT you can at least show support at the 4 level at some point to imply serious minor suit slam interest and/or doubts that 3NT is the best contract, when opener rebids something other than 3NT with a hand different than the basic balanced stuff.

In"SAYC" if we play 1m-3m as limit and 1m-2NT as 11-12 we don't have a way to show good support for the opened minor and a GF without inventing bids and suits along the way. This info can be critical to reaching minor suit slams and once in a while avoiding a hopeless 3NT when 5m is cold.

The system notes could use some serious refinement and expansion, and again, I'd be happy to help if wanted.

.. neilkaz ..