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Defend or bid?

#1 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 06:12

Scoring: IMP


MBC on BBO. You don't have the imagination to bid anything first in hand, so the bidding goes pass, pass, 3♣ from partner, 3NT to your right. Your partner is world class, not only according to his profile. He is in real life too.

As to the pre-empt: no agreements, so you must stick to your common sense.

Defend or bid?

Roland
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 07:40

Obvious pass. Opposite the most random of 3♣ bids, I clearly have nothing to say.

Opps might have anything from 3 down in 3NT to a cold 6NT. I sure ain't gonna disturb them...
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#3 User is offline   zasanya 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 08:35

LHO figures to be very short in ♣.3NT seems to be making.LHO however is sure to cue bid ♣.Ops are likely to have a ♦ fit/♥ fit.They may have a slam in red suit.
We can probably make 8 tricks in ♣.So I bid 5♣.
Aniruddha
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#4 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 08:50

Third seat is a bit wider ranging than 1st or 2nd. Partner may just be trying to put some pressure on 4th seat. I don't want to give them a choice of good options, so I simply pass and lead a club.
"Half the people you know are below average." - Steven Wright
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#5 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-November-08, 09:04

I am very torn because my instinct is really to bid but intellectually I feel like passing. It's dangerous to think of all the "pure" hands partner can have for his preempt where the opps are cold and you are down 2 or possibly even 1 (opposite the nuts). In most of those cases the opponents can profitably bid to 4H anyways, even though it might be hard for them.

In practice, partner can have a lot of hands for a third seat white/red preempt. With an ace and 3 clubs it is possible that though the opponents have a lot of high cards they don't have 9 runners and only have 1 club stopper. So we may even be in the realm of beating 3N where 4C is a phantom. 4C also may go for a big number, imagine partner with xx Qxx Kx QJ9xxx. As horrifying as that is, I think it's probably winning bridge to open 3C in 3rd white/red with that. If he has that we are in 1100 territory.

On the other hand I really trust my instincts a lot when I play, and it feels right to bid. So I'm not sure what I'm trying to say :) Put me down for pass I guess.
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#6 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 10:10

Walddk, on Nov 8 2006, 08:12 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP


MBC on BBO. You don't have the imagination to bid anything first in hand, so the bidding goes pass, pass, 3♣ from partner, 3NT to your right. Your partner is world class, not only according to his profile. He is in real life too.

As to the pre-empt: no agreements, so you must stick to your common sense.

Defend or bid?

Roland

I would not want this hand to raise one of my 3rd seat favorable preempts....
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#7 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 10:21

White v red in 3rd seat can generate some very weird 3♣ calls even (especially?) by genuine WC players. As Justin said, the opps may even be going down in 3N (I won't be holding my breath on that one, tho) while on another plausible hand, we are going for 800-1100 in 4♣.

I am not worried about jamming the opps out of a slam: there is little about this auction that suggests they are heading there. Even if they play some gadget over 3N (whereby advancer can find out if 3N was on 16-18 or bigger balanced or a running suit etc), LHO is a passed hand and so will rarely be picturing slam opposite what will sound like ♣ cards opposite his shortness.

So I pass.
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#8 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 16:24

I pass. Gotta allow pard some latitude in 3rd chair.

In addition, consider what LHO is going to do over (3c) 3NT P with a major suited hand. Is 4♦ a xfer? Is 4♥ to play? Have they discussed this in detail? Let 'em hang themselves.

This post has been edited by keylime: 2006-November-08, 21:51

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#9 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 16:47

I take the easy way and pass. To pull could be right. When it is wrong, it will be very wrong, and pd will not be happy with me.
Senshu
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#10 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 17:14

mikeh, on Nov 8 2006, 10:21 AM, said:

White v red in 3rd seat can generate some very weird 3♣ calls even (especially?) by genuine WC players. As Justin said, the opps may even be going down in 3N (I won't be holding my breath on that one, tho) while on another plausible hand, we are going for 800-1100 in 4♣.

I am not worried about jamming the opps out of a slam: there is little about this auction that suggests they are heading there. Even if they play some gadget over 3N (whereby advancer can find out if 3N was on 16-18 or bigger balanced or a running suit etc), LHO is a passed hand and so will rarely be picturing slam opposite what will sound like ♣ cards opposite his shortness.

So I pass.

We are in complete agreement.
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#11 User is offline   Limey_p 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 18:22

zasanya, on Nov 8 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

LHO figures to be very short in ♣.3NT seems to be making.LHO however is sure to cue bid ♣.Ops are likely to have a ♦ fit/♥ fit.They may have a slam in red suit.
We can probably make 8 tricks in ♣.So I bid 5♣.

I agree - ops may very well have a slam, let's make them guess.

Andy
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#12 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 18:37

Limey_p, on Nov 8 2006, 07:22 PM, said:

zasanya, on Nov 8 2006, 10:35 AM, said:

LHO figures to be very short in ♣.3NT seems to be making.LHO however is sure to cue bid ♣.Ops are likely to have a ♦ fit/♥ fit.They may have a slam in red suit.
We can probably make 8 tricks in ♣.So I bid 5♣.

I agree - ops may very well have a slam, let's make them guess.

Andy

Virtually all competent opponents, lacking a freak, will 'guess' by taking their sure plus via double.

Indeed, one of the hallmarks of good players is the willingness to take the money, rather than to be pushed around. 5♣ will not work against competent players.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 19:45

If I bid 4♣, its because I think pard misbid with 3♣. A hand like: x, xxx, xx, KQJxxxx is really what you hope for when you dive here.

So I pass.
"Phil" on BBO
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#14 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-November-08, 19:56

pclayton, on Nov 8 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

If I bid 4♣, its because I think pard misbid with 3♣. A hand like: x, xxx, xx, KQJxxxx is really what you hope for when you dive here.

obv he would open 1N with that :)
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#15 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 20:37

Jlall, on Nov 8 2006, 05:56 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 8 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

If I bid 4♣, its because I think pard misbid with 3♣. A hand like: x, xxx, xx, KQJxxxx is really what you hope for when you dive here.

obv he would open 1N with that :)

Or 2N..., or 1♠

ANYTHING but 3♣ :)
"Phil" on BBO
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#16 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 21:29

pclayton, on Nov 8 2006, 07:45 PM, said:

If I bid 4♣, its because I think pard misbid with 3♣. A hand like: x, xxx, xx, KQJxxxx is really what you hope for when you dive here.

So I pass.

Some White vs Red PD's in 3rd seat will have xx,xx,xxx,QJTxxx for their 3♣ bid.
If that is the case, bidding 4♣ sure opens the door for them to score alot more points than in 3NT.

Some PD's open 4♣ with the hand you give in 3rd seat in hopes that the opps play the wrong major suit game (game in at least one major looks rather cold) or that they stop in game when a slam makes.

Other PD's just open the hand you show 5C White vs Red in 3rd seat and let the chips fall where they may. I'd prefer to have an 8th club if I open 5♣ since my chances to go for a telephone number have decreased and the chances the opps may make a slam have increased since I am even less likely to take a trick.

Once again, I pass and let them play 3NT.
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#17 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2006-November-09, 02:28

Scoring: IMP


I agree with pass like the vast majority. The actual South pulled to 4♣ and got doubled by East needless to say.

A minor defensive slip made declarer escape for 3 down (500) on an endplay, but this was still a bad result (-5.47). Yes, 3NT makes double dummy, but it is not at all certain that it will at the table - especially not on the indicated club lead.

In fact, 7 declarers went either 1, 2 or 3 down. 6 made it, 4 of those with an overtrick. On perfect defence 4♣ goes for 800.

Roland
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