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Six level belongs to... ?

#1 User is offline   sathyab 

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Posted 2006-November-07, 17:48

Scoring: IMP


Playing against competent and aggressive opponents in a GNT A semi-final match it goes 2s by W, 3h by partner, 4s by E. You try 5s, LHO passes, partner bids 6h and now RHO continues to make a nuisance of himself by bidding 6s. We all know the five level belongs to the opponents, but who does the six level belong to ?
Seeking input from anyone who doesn't frequently "wtp", "Lol" or post to merely "Agree with ..."
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-November-07, 17:53

The six level belongs to them... which is why I'm bidding 7♥
(And I expect to make)
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-November-07, 18:44

I would have bid 7H over 4S. To think partner will automatically cuebid an ace over 5S would be naive... if his hand isn't good he won't cuebid. There's not enough room to differentiate bad hands with a side ace, good hands with a side ace, bad hands with no side ace and good hands with no side ace and it's much more important to partner to know that you don't have a good hand for slam immediately than to know only about your side aces and not about anything else. I think that if I jump to 7H partner will have the missing aces a huge majority of the time and when he doesn't they often won't lead the club ace if they don't hold it. The opps may also sac in 7S. It protects you to jump to 7H with a "gambling" type of hand like this and not to always have a lock (otherwise they can freely save).

I would have bid 4N if it were keycard over 4S, but I don't play it as such. As I bid now, I will bid 7H as I still think partner is a big favorite to have the ace of clubs.
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#4 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-November-07, 18:50

Ya I was thinking 7H over 4s. Maybe they will bid 7s over me? Partner is allowed to have 2 aces for her vul overcall?

Not sure I think partner last night bid 5H over 4s opening last night with only one. :D
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#5 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-November-07, 18:59

This hand is worth a grand slam. I'm going to spec that pard has the A♥ and the A♣.

What I really want to know is if he has the A♠, because I want keep 7N in the game. Instead of 5♠, I like a 6♠ call which I think should be read as a strong 7♥ call.

What I'm afraid is going to happen is that pard is afraid to make a FP over 7♠ with a 2=5=3=3 and 3 bare aces, even though he has the key first round control of spades.

For some reason, to me, a direct 7♥ call is one of those funny gambling bids (read as "who knows who can make what"?) that doesn't mind the opponents taking a sac in 7♠, whereby a direct 6♠ call is the nuts.

I have another fear that a diamond ruff is looming, but I can't tell which opponent is more likely to have the void.
"Phil" on BBO
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#6 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-November-07, 19:12

pclayton, on Nov 7 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

For some reason, to me, a direct 7♥ call is one of those funny gambling bids (read as "who knows who can make what"?) that doesn't mind the opponents taking a sac in 7♠, whereby a direct 6♠ call is the nuts.

?! lol..why would you want to tell the opponents whether or not you are gambling? That doesn't make sense to me

As for 7N opposite the spade ace... why are you sure partner has either the DJ or 3+ diamonds?
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#7 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-November-07, 20:09

Jlall, on Nov 7 2006, 05:12 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 7 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

For some reason, to me, a direct 7♥ call is one of those funny gambling bids (read as "who knows who can make what"?) that doesn't mind the opponents taking a sac in 7♠, whereby a direct 6♠ call is the nuts.

?! lol..why would you want to tell the opponents whether or not you are gambling? That doesn't make sense to me

As for 7N opposite the spade ace... why are you sure partner has either the DJ or 3+ diamonds?

No but I don't think I lose anything by splitting the 7♥ call into a fast and slow route, except perhaps LHO can 'suggest' a sac with a double of 6♠.

Honestly, we are talking about auctions that occur once every 3 years or so, so I'm not going to get worked up over the subtleties of the slow vs fast approach.
"Phil" on BBO
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#8 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-November-07, 21:21

pclayton, on Nov 7 2006, 09:09 PM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 7 2006, 05:12 PM, said:

pclayton, on Nov 7 2006, 07:59 PM, said:

For some reason, to me, a direct 7♥ call is one of those funny gambling bids (read as "who knows who can make what"?) that doesn't mind the opponents taking a sac in 7♠, whereby a direct 6♠ call is the nuts.

?! lol..why would you want to tell the opponents whether or not you are gambling? That doesn't make sense to me

As for 7N opposite the spade ace... why are you sure partner has either the DJ or 3+ diamonds?

No but I don't think I lose anything by splitting the 7♥ call into a fast and slow route, except perhaps LHO can 'suggest' a sac with a double of 6♠.

I don't understand...aren't you telling them when they should be saving? Wouldn't it be very exploitable in the sense that I could just save when you bid 6S?
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#9 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2006-November-07, 22:44

I confess - I do not like the 5♠ call; isn't 5♦ forward going?
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#10 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2006-November-07, 22:55

keylime, on Nov 7 2006, 11:44 PM, said:

I confess - I do not like the 5♠ call; isn't 5♦ forward going?

to me 5D shows...diamonds. Can't you just have a long diamond suit and a decent hand?
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#11 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2006-November-08, 10:10

sathyab, on Nov 7 2006, 07:48 PM, said:

Dealer: West
Vul: Both
Scoring: IMP
♠  
♥ KQxx
♦ AKQTxx
♣ Kxx
 


Playing against competent and aggressive opponents in a GNT A semi-final match it goes 2s by W, 3h by partner, 4s by E. You try 5s, LHO passes, partner bids 6h and now RHO continues to make a nuisance of himself by bidding 6s. We all know the five level belongs to the opponents, but who does the six level belong to ?


7♥ over 4♠. Even if it is "wrong," they may not make the setting lead or they may save.
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#12 User is offline   sathyab 

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Posted 2006-November-09, 02:39

What really struck me was the single-minded approach of all those who chose to post. Everyone here thought of 7h because most of the time your partner would have the two Aces of interest to you, as if you don't care if the two Aces your partner has are the wrong ones. The opponents would then rescue you by saving in 7s. There was even a cue-bid of 6s in preparation of 7nt !

Why exactly is it naive for partner to cue-bid the Ace of clubs if he has it? His partner's hand is not limited by any means and that cue might be exactly what he needs to hear. The weaker of the two hands often doesn't know exactly what the stronger hand is looking for. So it cue-bids whatever it can letting the partner make an intelligent choice. That's what treatments like serious-3nt and non-serious cue-bids are all about. I don't see any reason at all to simply gamble 7h if there're ways to figure out if partner has what you're looking for. Fourteen IMPs is a terrible thing to chuck, just because you think it's naive to assume that partner is going to cue-bid an Ace.

As it turns out partner has Ax AJTxxx xxx Qx. So the "naive" approach tells you he doesn't have the Ace of clubs, but it's pretty nearly impossible for him not have the Ace of spades. 6nt anyone ? As for 7h, you might get lucky if West is eager to sacrifice in 7s ahead of his partner, otherwise it's 100 in the minus column I'm afraid.
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#13 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2006-November-09, 03:16

What about making a forcing pass? Does that not invite a grand slam, but if we're not making one (because partner has a pile of ****) then we can double 6S, which looks to be par on the board
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