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How much is too much?

Poll: What do you open? (30 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you open?

  1. 1[R_DI] (16 votes [53.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 53.33%

  2. 2[_CL] (14 votes [46.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.67%

  3. Other (you're playing SAYC. if you choose other prepare to be mocked) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 08:52

Playing in an IMPs tournament yesterday I got dealt the following mess



The 1=4=6=2 shape caused me to open 1. (I believe that this is the strongest hand that I have ever been dealt where I didn't open 2) Curious whether there is any consensus surrounding the opening...
Alderaan delenda est
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#2 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:21

I open 1D, but wouldn't object to 2C.

If pd passes you are probably looking at a spade overcall.

I like 1D better in a partnerships where a 1 level response can be less than 6 hcp.

Peter
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#3 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:23

I would open 1 playing SAYC (and to avoid being mocked). I plan on a forcing bid the next time if there is a next time. A nice reverse into hearts comes to mind if partner bids a black suit or NT. Opening 2 and then rebidding 3 can possibily lose the heart suit for all time, as would parnter vernture a heart bid on xxxx or Jxxx of hearts? However, with a "two loser" hand, how bad in the long run can a 2 opening bid be?

Now to get back into the mocking mode, I do have a bid for this hand with most partners... opening 2 as weak two in either major, or a very strong minor hand. This fits the latter condition.
--Ben--

#4 User is offline   hatchett 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:26

I would open 2. I don't mind very strong 1 openings on 5431 shapes where we are playable in three strains and might need the space.
Here it goes 2-2-3 say and I'm not too badly placed, if it continues 3-3NT that's OK I feel I have pretty much shown my hand.
If I start with 1-1-2-2 this is awkward now.
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#5 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:32

I'll open this 1, but switch my second suit to spades and I think 2 is fine.

The reason? Its real tough to find hearts after the start 2 - 2 - 3 because for many 3 is double negative.
"Phil" on BBO
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#6 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:45

inquiry, on Jun 30 2006, 06:23 PM, said:

Now to get back into the mocking mode, I do have a bid for this hand with most partners... opening 2 as weak two in either major, or a very strong minor hand. This fits the latter condition.

Can you show hearts below 3N?
Alderaan delenda est
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#7 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:49

hrothgar, on Jun 30 2006, 10:45 AM, said:

inquiry, on Jun 30 2006, 06:23 PM, said:

Now to get back into the mocking mode, I do have a bid for this hand with most partners... opening 2 as weak two in either major, or a very strong minor hand. This fits the latter condition.

Can you show hearts below 3N?

Partner can show hearts.... below 3NT...

For example...

2D - pass- 2S

Shows tolerance for hearts and some value or distribution

2D - pass - 3H

Shows hearts and spades (probably 4S+, 3H+)

2D - pass - 3S

Shows at least 4 hearts

2D - Pass -3N
Shows 4-4 in the majors

2D - Pass - 4C
Shows 5H, 4S

2D - Pass 4D
Shows 5S, 4H.

Now should partner bid 2NT directly over 2D, there really isn't any need for me to show hearts, as we will surely have a laydown grand slam somewhere... what with the monster I hold. 4D response will show my strong hand and we go from there.
--Ben--

#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 09:49

It's popular among Dutch experts to open 2 and rebid 3, showing six diamonds and a four-card major. Without that gadget, I open 2 and rebid 2NT at matchpoints, 3 at IMPs.
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#9 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 10:00

I am a 1 opener.

After 2, then no matter what happens, unless I play a gadget, I will likely lose the suit.

Thus 2 2 3 even if 2 was positive (I play 2 neg), responder is not (I hope) about to bid 3 on Jxxx..... and may be reluctant to bid it on xxxxx.

There is a gadget available: 2 2 3M showing 4 card major and longer (you don't need it for 's: just use 2 2 3 3 as a waiting bid, allowing opener to show a side major below 3N)

But even if I had this gadget here, I would be reluctant to use it due to the relatively poor strength of the suit.

I see NO problem with 1 1 2 2 (for example): I would bid 3N... sure that could be 1=4=5=3, but this hand (with the 10 and poor internal 's) is not far from it... and this sequence would show the strength: too good for a 2N rebid over 2... which would be 17-19 or so.

I also think that 1 leaves me slightly better positioned should the opps get in my face....

As a nod to one post, I admit that this style works best when partner rarely passes: in my partnerships we almost never pass with an Ace nor with a decent 4 count and a 5 card major, so if it goes 1 ppp, I actually expect to get a good result.
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#10 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 10:41

I would open 1D.

However, there are people around who say they would respond 1S to a 1D opening bid on something like QJxxxx xxx x xxx and then pass a 2H reverse even though they "know" it is forcing. I don't play with people like that from choice, but if partner was one of them I would open 2C.
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#11 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 11:18

hrothgar, on Jun 30 2006, 09:52 AM, said:

Playing in an IMPs tournament yesterday I got dealt the following mess



The 1=4=6=2 shape caused me to open 1. (I believe that this is the strongest hand that I have ever been dealt where I didn't open 2) Curious whether there is any consensus surrounding the opening...

Let's see open 2c with:
long major, 4 QT and 9 playing tricks or
long minor, 4QT and 10 playing tricks or
22+ hcp balanced

I see long minor and 4+QT but less than 10 playing tricks so:
I open 1D
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#12 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 11:28

mike777, on Jun 30 2006, 08:18 PM, said:

Let's see open 2c with:
long major, 4 QT and 9 playing tricks or
long minor, 4QT and 10 playing tricks or
22+ hcp balanced

I see long minor and 4+QT but less than 10 playing tricks so:
I open 1D

I sounds like you're suggesting that that the hand isn't strong enough for a 2 opening.

From my perspective, the hand is easily strong enough...
I think that the primary flaw is the shape.
2 suiters with Diamonds and hearts are notoriously hard to handle...
Alderaan delenda est
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#13 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 11:50

hrothgar, on Jun 30 2006, 07:28 PM, said:

2 suiters with Diamonds and hearts are notoriously hard to handle...

Two-suiters with both minors are even worse. How do you like this auction:

2 - 2
3 - 3M
4

I am also a 1 opener although we might have missed a game if I don't get another chance.

Roland
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#14 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 11:54

That is my point, I would open a two suited problem hand with 2clubs if stronger.
A...AKQT....AQJxxx...AT
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#15 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 13:04

In American, some of the leading players are using:

2C-2D-3H/S

To describe a hand with long diamonds and 4 cards in the bid major.

Seems like a good idea to me.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
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#16 User is offline   joshs 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 16:20

fred, on Jun 30 2006, 02:04 PM, said:

In American, some of the leading players are using:

2C-2D-3H/S

To describe a hand with long diamonds and 4 cards in the bid major.

Seems like a good idea to me.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Yeah I have been playing this way for ten years. I first saw the treatment in a Romex book.

This way:
2C-2D-3C-
3D("stayman")
3M 5 cards

2C-2D-3D(denies a major)
3M 5 cards

2C-2D-3M
4 in M, 5+ in D

On a similar theme, when I play 2C-2H as either
a. a scattered positive (like a 2N bid)
or
b. a double negative

I play the auction 2C-2H-3S as flannary shape: 4S, 5+H
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#17 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2006-June-30, 22:46

joshs, on Jun 30 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

Yeah I have been playing this way for ten years. I first saw the treatment in a Romex book.

Which one?

The latest four books on Romex all suggest that with clubs the primary suit, 2-2any-3 shows a two suited hand, and then 3 asks for the second suit, while 2-2any-3 shows a club one-suiter. With primary diamonds you open 2 and the same principle applies.
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