[pclayton]

Interesting hand from last night's club game:

Scoring: MP

---

Obviously 7♦ is excellent. Brian and I bid: 1♦ - 1♥ - 3♣ - 3N - 4♣ - 4♦ - 4♠ - 6♦ - Pass.

I don't care for his 3N and I really hate 6♦.

Harvey and I would have bid it: 2♦ - 3♦ - 4♠ - 4N - 7♦. 2♦ = 0-3 losers, 3♦ = 4 controls, 4♠ = asking in spades, 4N = nada. Opener knows all controls must be in the form of red aces, so the grand is easy.

I'm curious to see how some of the other systems would find the grand, especially a Misiry opener.

[Free]

Playing MOSCITO with my f2f partner (original symmetric relays):
1♣ - 1NT
2♣ - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠
2NT - 3♦
3♥ - 3NT
4♣ - 4♥
4♠ - 5♣
7♦ - pass

1♣ is 15+HCP any distribution (do we really get no interference here?), and the West hand will just ask about responder's hand.
Bidding until 3♦ shows a 4-4-3-2.
3NT shows 7 SlamPoints (A=3, K=2, Q=1)
4♥ shows 1/2 tophonours ♥ and 0/3 tophonours in ♠. 5♣ shows 1/2 tophonours ♦, which means E must have xxxx-AQxx-Axx-xx, which is enough for grand.

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Jan 6 2006, 09:43 AM, said:

Interesting hand from last night's club game:

Scoring: MP

---

I'm curious to see how some of the other systems would find the grand, especially a Misiry opener.

MisIry is very easy...

3♦ = 3♥
4NT = 7♦
Pass

Where 3♦ show heart preempt, or diamond-spade two suiter strong, or diamond-club two suiter strong

3♥ is pass/correct

4NT = show club-diamond two suiter, two losers, and ♥ cover needed.

Responder with heart ACE and diamond ACE knows his partners hand is something like...

A
x
KQxxx(x)
AKQxx(x)

or the hand held.

Over 3♥. a 5♣ rebid would have shown two losers, no heart cover needed. So if Openers majors were reversed, he would have bid 5♣ over 3♥ and six would have been reached without pain.

Ben

[hrothgar]

Quick comment here:

The hand in question is obviously strong enough for a 1♣ opening playing MOSCITO. With this said and done, I lean towards an overstrength 1♠ opening.

Its ridiculous to expect an uncontested relay auction.
You'll be much better positioned during a competitive auction.

If you prefer this style, the big 5-5 hands are shown using a 3♣ bids after 1♦ - 1NT. Relay asker is permitted to pass this response. 3♦ is relay. 3M = natural, and non-forcing. Note: if responder HAS Diamonds, he should hold GF values...

[toothbrush]

hrothgar, on Jan 6 2006, 10:29 AM, said:

Quick comment here:

The hand in question is obviously strong enough for a 1♣ opening playing MOSCITO. With this said and done, I lean towards an overstrength 1♠ opening.

Its ridiculous to expect an uncontested relay auction.
You'll be much better positioned during a competitive auction.

Agree

I can never believe that opponents will not interrupt when I have this distribution.

[Winstonm]

2C-3D* *Two prime cover cards, AA or AK
4S*-5D** *Exclusion Blackwood **2 Aces outside
7D

Winston

[hrothgar]

Winstonm, on Jan 6 2006, 07:01 PM, said:

2C-3D*  *Two prime cover cards, AA or AK
4S*-5D**  *Exclusion Blackwood  **2 Aces outside
7D

Winston

2♣ is an an abomination. It is the sort of bid that justifies the creation of the inquisition. Parents should threaten small children with bids like this one...
(Well maybe its not quite that bad, but its sure not good)

I'd rather open 5♣ or even 5♦ rather than 2♣

[mikeh]

1♦  1♥
3♣  3♦
4♠  5♦
7♦

4♠ is exclusion keycard: there is no response that you cannot handle, so there is no need to delay matters further. You get the magic 2 keycard response and 7♦ has to be reasonable.

[mikeh]

BTW, I agree that 3N after 3♣ is a horrible bid. I never understand the failure to support with support: how on earth is partner ever going to properly value his/her hand if responder commits mastermind bids like 3N? And, I know, the 3N bidder would vehemently deny any intention of masterminding, yet that is what the bid is.

[Winstonm]

hrothgar, on Jan 6 2006, 11:36 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jan 6 2006, 07:01 PM, said:

2C-3D*  *Two prime cover cards, AA or AK
4S*-5D**  *Exclusion Blackwood  **2 Aces outside
7D

Winston

2♣ is an an abomination. It is the sort of bid that justifies the creation of the inquisition. Parents should threaten small children with bids like this one...
(Well maybe its not quite that bad, but its sure not good)

I'd rather open 5♣ or even 5♦ rather than 2♣

I agree totally if your system cannot show a 6/6 minor hand with 2 losers: the one I play has this bid available so the 2C opening is not so weird....otherwise, I would agree with you. But the poster said "with your system....".

Romex has some strange looking bids as well - but they are not abominations within the structure of the system.

And next time, don't sugar coat it - tell us how you really feel.

Winston

[mikeh]

This hand reminded me of a recent thread on roth-stone, in which another system was described that it turn appeared to be a form of Schenken: the first 'advanced' method I ever played. We used the Schenken 2♦ opening bid that requested specific Aces:

2♦  3♥
3♠  4♦
7♦

3♥, being a jump, showed that Ace and another one. 3♠ relayed (I can't recall if we used relay bid back then), and 4♦ showed the ♦A.

Schenken's book promised 'Better Bidding in 15 Minutes', so it was not big on follow-up

It is a good thing that we were dealt the ♦10, since in Schenken we might be in 7♦ opposite xxxx Ax A Jxxxxx.

The good news on that hand is that opponents rarely lead singletons against grand slams

[kgr]

mikeh, on Jan 6 2006, 06:51 PM, said:

1♦  1♥
3♣  3♦
4♠  5♦
7♦

4♠ is exclusion keycard: there is no response that you cannot handle, so there is no need to delay matters further. You get the magic 2 keycard response and 7♦ has to be reasonable.

Same for me except 5♠ iso 4♠.
I have agreement with my partner that jump to 5 is exclusion keycard. Still I would risk 5♠.
How does your partner know that 4♠ is exclusion and not control showing or anything else? do you have a rule for this (need rules to make it easier for my partner , sometimes he also forget the rules )?

[pclayton]

kgr, on Jan 6 2006, 09:31 AM, said:

mikeh, on Jan 6 2006, 06:51 PM, said:

1♦  1♥
3♣  3♦
4♠  5♦
7♦

4♠ is exclusion keycard: there is no response that you cannot handle, so there is no need to delay matters further. You get the magic 2 keycard response and 7♦ has to be reasonable.

Same for me except 5♠ iso 4♠.
I have agreement with my partner that jump to 5 is exclusion keycard. Still I would risk 5♠.
How does your partner know that 4♠ is exclusion and not control showing or anything else? do you have a rule for this (need rules to make it easier for my partner , sometimes he also forget the rules )?

4♠ must be EKCB in this sequence. I discussed this with Brian afterward and he agreed. 5♠ is overkill with an intelligent partner.

I still think we can get to the grand if he just raises 4♥ to 5♥. I then trot GSF and he shows one honor with 6♣.

3N looks like a sure fire loser if this was presented as an "Assign the Blame" post.

[Free]

inquiry, on Jan 6 2006, 04:12 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 6 2006, 09:43 AM, said:

Interesting hand from last night's club game:

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: MP

♠   ♥ x ♦ KQJTxx ♣ AKQxxx ♠ J9xx ♥ AQTx ♦ Axx ♣ xx

I'm curious to see how some of the other systems would find the grand, especially a Misiry opener.

MisIry is very easy...

3♦ = 3♥
4NT = 7♦
Pass

Where 3♦ show heart preempt, or diamond-spade two suiter strong, or diamond-club two suiter strong

3♥ is pass/correct

4NT = show club-diamond two suiter, two losers, and ♥ cover needed.

Responder with heart ACE and diamond ACE knows his partners hand is something like...

A
x
KQxxx(x)
AKQxx(x)

or the hand held.

Over 3♥. a 5♣ rebid would have shown two losers, no heart cover needed. So if Openers majors were reversed, he would have bid 5♣ over 3♥ and six would have been reached without pain.

Ben

When partner has a preempt ♥, you're not willing to play 4♥??? Imo a 4♥ response is much more realistic than 3♥. How do you bid now?

[Free]

toothbrush, on Jan 6 2006, 04:37 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jan 6 2006, 10:29 AM, said:

Quick comment here:

The hand in question is obviously strong enough for a 1♣ opening playing MOSCITO.  With this said and done, I lean towards an overstrength 1♠ opening.

Its ridiculous to expect an uncontested relay auction. 
You'll be much better positioned during a competitive auction.

Agree

I can never believe that opponents will not interrupt when I have this distribution.

While I agree that you'll be better placed in competitive bidding, I disagree that you'll be better placed all the time. When partner starts with a 2♦ bid (transfer ♠) you're screwed, since you have to bid 2♥ without support and partner might pass.

You have your 15+HCP and 9+SP to open 1♣, you have 2 losers, why be afraid of bidding like you should?

What is the problem when opps intervene after our 1♣ opening? We can always bid 4NT or 5NT to show our minors. Perhaps if we had the full hand we might be able to see how the bidding develops. But since opps didn't intervene after the 1♦ opening, I don't expect them to intervene very heavily after a strong 1♣ opening.

[inquiry]

Free, on Jan 6 2006, 12:53 PM, said:

When partner has a preempt ♥, you're not willing to play 4♥???  Imo a 4♥ response is much more realistic than 3♥.  How do you bid now?

If partner thinks I have a heart preempt he will not be too worried aobut missing game here since I am not vul and my preempts are very light in this situation. He has three tricks for me, maybe a fourth if I have three clubs. So it is not clear he would bid 4♥. So 3♥ playing with me looks about right, I tend to play 5431 preempts, not vul versus not vul, I will be down four if partner has nothing, so partners three tricks are not quite enough.

But if he was to bid 4♥, the conventional continuations are"

4♠ = I have spade/diamond two suiter, 3 or 4 losers
4NT = I have diamond/club loser, 3 or 4 losers
5C = I have diamond/club two suiter, two losers...
5D = two loser, SPade=diamond two suiter, etc

Ok, so here the 5♣ bid forces you not to tell whehter the heart control is useful, but EAST is still thinking grand. At five level, cue-bid by responder show first round control, over 5♣, responder bids 5♥ (first round control).

Over this opener is fairly certain of grand slam. Why? Responder is forcing to slam and not signing off, and showing heart ace along the way. Surely responder has one sure cover plus the speculative heart ACE. Still, responder mgiht have both major aces. So, opener give the traditional response that shows the heart bid is useful (anything but signoff with pass/correct 6♣). So the grand is still bid.

[EricK]

mikeh, on Jan 6 2006, 04:51 PM, said:

1♦  1♥
3♣  3♦
4♠  5♦
7♦

4♠ is exclusion keycard: there is no response that you cannot handle, so there is no need to delay matters further. You get the magic 2 keycard response and 7♦ has to be reasonable.

That was my sequence too.

[awm]

Sam and I recently added a 2NT opening to our strong club system which is specifically designed to handle these hands. Basically I've seen that there are many advantages to Misiry in slam bidding, and these sorts of hands (strong 5-5s) tend to incite a lot of interference when we open our strong 1♣. On the other hand, the loss of natural preempts seems too high a price to pay for Misiry to me; if I can't even bump my partner's transfer preempts with four-card support (as Inquiry suggests not to in this example) you can see where there might be issues. I'm also capable of designing a very effective defense to transfer preempts, and Sam and I play in enough strong fields that we expect our opponents to be able to do the same.

Fortunately, 2NT was a free bid in our system since big balanced hands open 1♣, so all we're losing is a "preempt with both minors" that doesn't much come up anyway. Our new 2NT shows a hand with 5-5 or better in two suits not including spades, and basically one trick from game (4 losers or fewer with [H]+minor, 3 or fewer with ♣+♦). Our auction will go:

2NT (strong artificial) - 3♣ (asking)
4NT (5-5 or better minors, 2 losers, ♥ card is potentially useful) - 7♦ (♥A+♦A will do it)

When opener has spades and another, we just open 1♣ and deal with the competitive auction. This tends to be easier when we hold the master suit.

[mikeh]

How does your partner know that 4♠ is exclusion and not control showing or anything else? do you have a rule for this (need rules to make it easier for my partner , sometimes he also forget the rules )?[/QUOTE]
An unusual jump into a new suit is either a splinter or (some form of) keycard. I say 'some form of' because, if ♥ were agreed, for me 4♠ would be regular 1430 keycard and 4n would be exclusion in ♠

Except in a few very specific sequences, of which this is not close to being one, opener does not splinter in support of himself, when all that responder has done is provide a preference. Therefore, the splinter use of 4♠ is (in all my agreement-intensive partnerships) impossible, leaving only exclusion.

Furthermore, using 5♠ as exclusion is almost never going to be efficient: consider that all responses propel you to slam: thus you can use such a jump ONLY when contemplating a small v grand decision, and that significantly (and needlessly, from my p.o.v.) lessens the utility of the gadget.

While I have this kind of specific agreement with only 4 partners (one of whom I have not played with for years), I would expect virtually all experts to get it right if I sprang it one them, so long as we had agreed that 'we play exclusion?'