[shanbari]

it totally make sense, especially i like
1nt - 2D;
2H - 2S; 2s is general invitation with 5 hearts.

with that method, responder with 5H 5m invitational hand can always find good fit and stop at low level.


the only thing bother me is how to show 5M5m GF hand, unless we play KERI 2C.

SHAN

[hrothgar]

Jlall, on Jun 20 2005, 08:12 PM, said:

I recently blogged on a system idea I came up with to facilitate developing auctions after a jacoby transfer has been bid here: Squeezing The Dummy

I was wondering if any of you system wizards had any ideas for possible improvements/drawbacks/anything I missed. Thanks. I think this could be very useful.

Hi Justin

From my perspective, the most important issue to consider is whether responder's second bid should be a transfer or a puppet... Equally significant, its unclear whether the secondary xfr should necessarily show game forcing values. Its possible that showing game invitational strength might be more useful. For what its worth, the Scanian NT structure uses second round transfer and is well owrth looking at...

If you decide that the bid should be a transfer, then you need to decide what super-accepts of the second transfer should show. For example, assume that when opener initially completed the xfer he denies 4 card support for responder's primary suit (holding 4 card support, opener would have super accepted). In this case, it might make sense to play that completing the transfer show 2 card suit for responder's primary suit. Rebidding in the primary shows 3 cards support for responder's primary suit. 3N shows a 4333 but denies 4 card support for the secondary. other rebids show 4 card support for the secondary suit and concentrated values...

I think that you have wasted bidding space in the sequences

1N - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3♠ and
1N - 2♥ - 2♠ - 3[♥

You should be able to combine both hand types in to the 3♥ rebid and free 3♠ for something else.

[inquiry]

This has a lot of simiarities to ETM Victory method over 1NT. For example, ETM victory uses 1N-2D-2H-2S as game invite with 5H, they add game force with four plus clubs as well...

There are some differences however, the ETM victory is more complete than this introductory material, and and some are quite different. For instance, were you define...

1N = 2C
any = 2S as five or more spades and invite, they use this as range check, or signoff in clubs. and use the 2NT rebid to show 5spades and invite.

Take a look at the ETM victory method(s) over 1NT at...
ETM One Notrump Structure

You may find some combination of stuff there you might want to add to your proposed structure

Ben

[luis]

Over 1NT Keri by Ron Klinger (the new version) is really great, Easy to remember, easy to handle and better than the normal transfers+guess what approach.
If you are serious about system I'd recommend you to just take a look at Keri. Pls note that the book uses the old version.

[hrothgar]

luis, on Jun 21 2005, 12:34 AM, said:

Over 1NT Keri by Ron Klinger (the new version) is really great, Easy to remember, easy to handle and better than the normal transfers+guess what approach.
If you are serious about system I'd recommend you to just take a look at Keri. Pls note that the book uses the old version.

Pretty much agree with Luis

If I were forming a serious partnership, I'd probably insist on adopting either Keri or Scanian NT structure

[glen]

Thanks Justin for setting up your blog - I look forward to reading it on an ongoing basis.

There's good news and bad news about the second transfers. The September 03 Bridge World has an article titled Double Transfers by Frank Lipniski, which employs like-minded methods. Also many many years ago I've seen the same type of approach in another BW article. So the bad news is its not new, but the good news is others have liked it and used it before. I'll discuss your ideas a little more below.

For the ETM NT methods (referenced above), I'll have an update (the 2005 structures) out sometime in the 3 to 8 weeks range.

What I've found out about NT and NT structures is this (which also applies to systems too):

- Players seem to get the most effectiveness out of one particular notrump range - I've had partners who are best with 10-12, others with 11-14, and others with 14+-17. When these players switch to another range, they don't seem to do as well (its not that they do awful, just they don't do as well).
- Just like NT ranges, players should pick a structure they feel comfortable with. I believe a partnership can be quite comfortable adding the "double transfers" (more transfers after the first transfers).

I like the retransfer methods as they allow responder to shape out, showing a singleton or fragment, which is key for opener to evaluate. For example after 1NT-2♥--2♠-2NT--3♣, responder can show shortness or fragment.

Also playing 1NT-2♣--2Red-2♠ to show GI with ♠s allows distributional invites to be shown.

The retransfers to the major is great, as it can show 6 or longer in the major, with game invite values or stronger. Now choice of game can be offered. For example 1NT-2♦--2♥-3♦--3♥-3NT: here 3♦ shows 6+♥s and invite+, and 3♥ declines the invite, and now 3NT offers choice of game. You don't play retransfer to spades after the spade transfer, but should (so 1NT-2♥--2♠-3♥ should show 6+♠s, invite+).

I would play the 3♠ rebid after the transfer (to either major) as showing a semi-distributional choice of game with 5 in the major. This allows the 3NT rebid by responder to show a flat (often 5-3-3-2 or 5-4-2-2 with spread out values) choice of game. Choice of game bids can produce many swings (combined with judgement).

Given all this, I'm still moving towards using Italian re-asking bids after Stayman, in the ETM IMP NT structure, which require that 1NT-2♣--2♦-2♠ and 1NT-2♣--2♥-2♠ be available as an artificial GF asking bid, for shape. This would then prevent the GI with 5♠s being included in Stayman, which then means that 1NT-2♥--2♠-2NT can no longer be a transfer to ♣s.

The most fun I've had with retransfers was with the ETM mini/weak notrump structure (http://www.bridgemat...om/weakmini.htm). With those methods we were retransfering all the time and it was fun!

Again, best wishes for your blog. I've thought of setting up a blog around my ETM stuff, but I'm not sure the older players relate to blogs as much as the younger ones do.

[mikestar]

This is a good idea, but Al Roth proposed something simpler in Picture Bidding:

1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ and 1NT-2♥-2♠-2NT are artificial game forces with shape. Natural continuations or relays could be used.

1NT-2♦-2♥-3♣/3♦ and 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♣/3♦/3♥ are natural and invitational.

This means your will need to bid Satyman with a flat invite with 5 spades as above.

You might well use 1NT-2♦-2♥-2NT as a "cancel the transfer" bid to show some minor suit hands or whatever system gaps you may have over 1NT. Then the flat invites with 5 hearts go through Stayman as well. I really don't mind missing a 5-3 fit when we are both balanced, and Stayman assures you'll never miss a 5-4 fit.

[PMetsch]

In the 2000 olympiad at Maastricht, Kokish-Mittelman played transfers after Jacoby-transfer (they played weak NT). I copied this, from their convention card notes (I hope it is readable):

1NT 2D*
2H 2NT* 5+H/4+C (double transfer); FG
3C* 5+H/4+D (double transfer); FG
3D* 6+H; INV or slam try/game choice (not 3/5 top cards)
3H* 6+H/FG; slam try/game choice with 3/5 top cards)
3NT 5H/game choice
3S/4m* 6+H; SPL slam try
4H* 6+H; mild BAL slam try
4S/5m* Exclusion RKCB for H
4NT 6H322 sound QUANT slam try with (3/5 top cards)

1NT 2D*
2H 2NT* 5+H/4+C
3C 4+C
3H 3+H
3D 3C/2H; D values with S concern for notrump
3S 3C/2H; S values with D concern for notrump
3NT Real
4C 4+C/3+H, slam-suitable
4D 4+C, D concentration, slam-suitable
4H 4H, good fit with C but not 4C, no side ace
4S 4+C, S concentration, slam-suitable
4NT Something like: Axx Kx Axx QJ10xx

There are many more notes (e.g. about 2♦ = 5♥ or some specific hands [Walsh?]), but this is the basic idea.

[PMetsch]

I found some more:

RELATED SEQUENCES:

1NT 2C
2D 2H* Weak, both majors, invites correction
2S Invitational 5/6S
2NT Invitational (some 4-card M or 5H)

1NT 2C
2H 2S INV with 5S, or 4S UNBAL, or weak hand with 4S/5+D

1NT 2C
2S 2NT Invitational with 4/5H

1NT 2S* "REJECT" game/slam try; 6-card suit or BAL
2NT* Minimum; then 3x=NF, 4x=still slam hopes
3C* Non-min, poor C holding; then 3D/3M NF
3D* Non-min, poor D holding, decent C; then 3M NF
3H* Non-min, poor H holding, decent C/D; then 3S NF
3S* Non-min, poor S holding, decent C/D/H; then 4C/4D/4H=F
3NT* Maximum, accepting all tries; then 4x=6-card suit F

That should cover the basic NT- structure.

[Fluffy]

I found this thing very interesting, but I have my 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ squencee filled with something else that solves part of this problem already.

[SoTired]

1N 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ = 5♥/4♠, invitational because I need
1N 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ = garbage stayman, opener passes or corrects to 2♠ with equal or better ♠
1N 2♣ 2♦ 2♠ = 5♠/4♥, invitational
1N 2♣ 2X 3m = GF, 4M, 5m, no major fit
1N 2♣ 2M 3oM = anonymous splinter
There is over a 100 other sequences, but SoTired

[luke warm]

justin, on the 5M/4M hands, why not start with 2♣ and then bid 3m, with the minor bid showing the corresponding (color) 5 card suit? this works well if you play puppet stayman, which i like

1nt : 2c
2d : 3c=4 hearts and 5 spades & 3d=5 hearts and 4 spades

of course you might need these bids for something else, i don't know.. there are a lot of possibilities here... it seems to me that playing puppet stayman solves a lot of problems, because opener will bid 2d far more often, allowing more room for xfers

1nt : 2nt
3c : 3h for example can show 5 clubs and 4 spades

[awm]

This is in some ways similar to part of the Keri variant I play with several regular partners. It seems simple and should work quite well. A couple observations though:

In general, assuming natural continuations over transfers, I would play:

1NT - 2♦
2♥ - 3♣
3♦/♠

as showing cards in the suit bid. Showing a five card suit here is fairly unlikely to be useful. Since I like to probe for the best game, my tendency would be to bid 3NT with no good major suit fit and cards in both unbids. Usually 3NT is the right contract in this situation -- wastage in the unbids is the death hand for slam, and also the "3NT is right" hand for the hand just probing for best game. So bidding one new suit would show values in that suit and not the other unbid, and no major fit, asking partner to try 3NT with shortage opposite values (and some cards in the other unbid). This method seems pretty sensible to me, and also avoids some of the issues since first priority is to define holdings in the side suits rather than degree of fit for the minor.

With that said, the transfer extensions still seem fine. One loss you will have is the need for stayman followed by 2♠ to show a spade invite. In addition to the 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠ auction you mention, there is also the auction: 1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠. If you use a direct raise to 2NT as natural, this 2♠ bid is kind of meaningless and you may as well use it as invite with spades. But if you use direct 2NT as something else (say transfer to diamonds) then you'll lose the ability to discover the 4-4 spade fit (i.e. you have to rebid 2NT to invite with or without four spades).

[whereagles]

The new version of Keri is actually very, very simple. Quick to memorize and much more precise than the usual methods. Actually, I'm pretty sure Keri would be standard if Stayman hadn't invented his convention

(The krei book version requires a lot more study, as it's less mnemonic.)

[glen]

If you "have to rebid 2NT to invite with or without four spades" then there are three approaches:

1) Opener doesn't open 1NT with a minimum and 4-4 in the majors. Instead open 1♣ (playing 1♣ can be as short as 2, 1♦ promises 4), and have the 1♣-1NT response promise 8-10 or 9-11 etc. so opener with 15 & 4-4 in majors can take another bid.

2) Don't invite without a four card major - either pass 1NT or jump to 3NT (or show long minor etc).

3) Do invite without a four card major, but if 2NT is rebid by responder, opener can rebid 3♣ to ask for type of invite - with or w/o 4♠s and if distributional or relatively flat. Opener always asks with 4♠s, so sometimes getting too high if an invite with no four card major but that just returns to the point that 2) would be at.