[Winstonm]

Scoring: IMP

Bidding
1S-2D
2S-3S
4D-4N
5C-5D
?

3 Questions:

1) In RKCB, do you show the Queen with extra length without a guarantee of a 10-card fit, or is there a method to separate a "yes, I have the Queen" from a "No, but I have an extra card" response? 2) Do you play that a Queen ask guarantees all the first round controls? 3) What method is the best for continuations without asking for the Queen?

Thanks

---

[SoTired]

1) No
2) No
3) Best? I use: 5D=Q-ask, 5N=SKA (all 6 KC), 6C/6D/6H=3rd round control ask and replies are 6S=no 3rd round control, 7S=doubleton, 6N=Q, 7-ask=QJ

[hrothgar]

It is standard to treat extra length as being equivalent to the queen
I don't beleive that many people use a secondary ask to differentate between the two cases.

Best to consult Kantar's book

[mike777]

I would show Q if I do not have lady but have extra length on this auction. Good Grief I got the JT.
If partner gets upset then you need another partner.

[Echognome]

I show the Q when having extra length as well. As far as continuations, we play a simple version of spiral scanning (with low, middle, high as our scanning order) which I find fairly useful.

[luke warm]

i don't think you should show the queen in this auction, because (if this is the way you play it) your 2s bid already showed 6 cards.. if that's the case, partner already knows you have "extra" length... with 7 including the J, 10 i probably would

[fifee]

Winstonm, on Jun 22 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Bidding
1S-2D
2S-3S
4D-4N
5C-5D
?

3 Questions:

1) In RKCB, do you show the Queen with extra length without a guarantee of a 10-card fit, or is there a method to separate a "yes, I have the Queen" from a "No, but I have an extra card" response? 2) Do you play that a Queen ask guarantees all the first round controls? 3) What method is the best for continuations without asking for the Queen?

Thanks

---

In answer to your 3 Questions:

1) In RKCB, do you show the Queen with extra length without a guarantee of a 10-card fit, or is there a method to separate a "yes, I have the Queen" from a "No, but I have an extra card" response?
I agree with Luke Warm. You have shown 6 card suit, so do not show the Q here because of "extra length." If you have not promised 6 cards, then by all means, show the Q even if you don't have it or if you know your side has 10 trump, then show the Q. An experienced partner will know if he is looking at the Q that your bid shows extra length.

2) Do you play that a Queen ask guarantees all the first round controls?
No, I don't but I do play that asking for Kings guarantees all the 5 major Key Cards and either the Q or extra length since this bid is looking for grand slam.

3) What method is the best for continuations without asking for the Queen?
I prefer the GoldWay method of RKC. After Ace asking bid and response, cuebid your cheapest king past 5 of our trump suit. Then partner cuebids his cheapest King. 5NT can be used by either partner to say, this is not a King but I have previously undisclosed assets that would be of help in grand slam. Cuebidding Kings up the line without passing 6 of our trump suit, of course, until ome of us has knowledge of 13 tricks, works beautifully.

[Double !]

I have to Double !-check, but I think Kantar considers this a double-suit agreement where there are 6 key cards and two key queens. I just don't remember the responses to show the queens, I think 5S shows queen of lower suit.
Man, am I glad I downloaded and printed out all 23 of his chapters when it was still free on his web site. Now, If only I could remember anything that I read....................................................................

[whereagles]

Kantar's book has great suggestions, but you better memorize the whole thing properly before using them

[joker_gib]

Hi Winstonm,

In answer to your 3 Questions:

1) I show the Q with 10 cards fit not 9. (btw does your 2♠ bid show 6 ? (not in my system)

2) No, I don't but kings ask guarantees all the 5 keys and either the Q or extra length since this bid is looking for grand slam.

3) a simple jump that is not our trump suit asks to cue bid kings. That's simple and effective.

So, here, after 5♣, 5♦ asks for Q and 5♥ asks for kings. On 5♦, you cue bid your 1st king if you have the Q or bid 5 in our trump if you don't.

(don't know if I have been clear )

Alain

[Winstonm]

Seems to me that if you adopted Kickback you'd have the extra step available to show extra length?

1H-2D
3D-3H
4S-4N
5C-5D*

*No queen but 4 trump.

I haven't used Kickback. Are there problems?

Thanks,

WinstonM

[FrancesHinden]

Winstonm, on Jun 22 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

1a) In RKCB, do you show the Queen with extra length without a guarantee of a 10-card fit

No. Only if there is known to be a 10-card fit, and not always then. If partner is looking for a grand, there can be a big difference between having & not having the queen, even if you do have a 10 card fit. It depends where your tricks are coming from: if I need to ruff a suit out before drawing trumps then not having solid trumps can be the difference between an 80% grand and a 40% grand.


1b), or is there a method to separate a "yes, I have the Queen" from a "No, but I have an extra card" response?

I don't know of one, but I'm sure somebody will write one! When trumps are spades or hearts we can distinguish between the Q and extra length when responding to grand slam force.

2) Do you play that a Queen ask guarantees all the first round controls?

Only if a negative response takes you past 5 of the agreed suit, i.e. if it has to be the start of a grand hunt. And not even then if a 5NT response to the ask is passable.

3) What method is the best for continuations without asking for the Queen?

There are many methods, and I don't think any one is obviously best.

After 4NT RKCB I play a bid of a side suit (that isn't the queen ask) asks for the KQ of that suit (step 1: neither, step 2: Q, step 3: KQ).

In the very, very few kickback auctions we have we play spiral scan (we find there isn't usually room after a 4NT ask).

5NT after RKCB is a general grand try promising all the first round controls and looking for 13 tricks. Responder is allowed to bid a grand slam - and expected to do so a fair proportion of the time. If responder can't think of anything better to do, responder can say how many kings he/she has (we don't cue specific kings as the 4NT-bidder could have asked for specific kings as above).

[Fluffy]

you have 9/10 trumps, this means you have more than 50% chances of getting ♠Q fall, further more, it is possible that ♠K is missing as well, wich would mean 6♠ makes 3/4 or more. All in all it seems like a right time to show a Q you don't have. The drawback is playing 7♠/NT when 7♦ is cold.

[FrancesHinden]

I think there is an issue of partnership trust.

Partner chose to use Blackwood and then enquire about the queen of spades.
Why lie in response? If all he wanted was good trumps, he could (say) have raised spades to the 5-level, or cued 4H to see if you were going to ask for keycards. If he is looking for a grand slam with 10 spades between the hands there are many ways he could have done so which didn't involve using Blackwood.

I feel quite strongly that here, where you don't really have extra spade length at all, if you show the queen when you don't have her, you are saying to your partner "I don't believe you know what you are doing, so I'm going to guess what you really want me to bid rather than answer your question"

Now, there are many players around who just jump into Blackwood as soon as they have a fit, and then try and work out what the right contract is later. If your partner is one of them then by all means lie in response - you have a pretty good hand and slam is likely to have play if partner really has a strong enough hand for his try. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that partner might be one of these players, because he doesn't know if our diamond holding is K, Kx, KQx or Kxx and he didn't try and find out. But I haven't seen anyone suggest that this is a good reason to lie.

[Al_U_Card]

Winstonm, on Jun 22 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Bidding
1S-2D
2S-3S
4D-4N
5C-5D
?

3 Questions:

1) In RKCB, do you show the Queen with extra length without a guarantee of a 10-card fit, or is there a method to separate a "yes, I have the Queen" from a "No, but I have an extra card" response?  2) Do you play that a Queen ask guarantees all the first round controls? 3) What method is the best for continuations without asking for the Queen?

Thanks

---

In this auction, even tho I do show 6S with the 2S bid, I would not indicate having the S Q. (Funny, but I always associated the "extra length = the Q" with the responder hand only.....) I would need all key cards to ask. The affirmative response is given by showing the lowest ranking king below the trump suit, or bidding 6 of our suit if required.

[Winstonm]

[QUOTE]You have shown 6 card suit, so do not show the Q here because of "extra length."

Not everyone concurs with this treatment, myself included. In my methods, the rebid of the same major basically denies having any other bid to make and does not show any extra length.