[hsu6700]

Dear Mr. Gitelman,

In your BBO updated countries choice, I noticed that you replaced Taiwan with Chinese Taipei. Taiwan is an independent nation and is not a part of China.

The reality is that Taiwan is a state with its own government, elections, currency and defined territory. Taiwan negotiates its own treaties and has its own president. In addition, in the CIA World Fact Book 2005 (http://www.cia.gov/c...ok/geos/tw.html), Taiwan is listed independently of any country and has its own national flag and capital.

China, regardless of how economically powerful, should not dictate to a venerable hi-tech company such as BBO, what to write. Taiwan is NOT Chinese Taipei -- correct please.

Thank you very much for your concern.

Regards,

[kenrexford]

Fair point.

[ccccwwww]

No politics pls, BBO just follows the WBF definition. you can refuse to play at BBO, or play WBF contests, you can even refuse to travel to countries without formly admitting taiwan as an independent nation. But keep bridge CLEAN!

[geller]

As a practical matter BBO has no choice but to follow the official designations (2007 world chamionship participants).

I'm sure that none of the entities involved are fully happy with this compromise, but everyone is living with it and China and Chinese Tapei are able to compete in the same events and play each other. So let's not hassle Fred about this.

-Bob

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

As a practical matter BBO has no choice but to follow the official designation

Why is this? Perhaps it should for the purposes of Vugraph of the WBF championships, but for play in the main bridge club, BBO is an independent, private company and can do as it pleases. It has no obligation to follow the WBF.

[geller]

Stephen Tu Posted on Oct 11 2007, 01:37 PM

Quote

for play in the main bridge club, BBO is an independent, private company and can do as it pleases. It has no obligation to follow the WBF.

First, this is obviously a personal opinion. I don't speak for Fred or BBO or any other organization. It's certainly true that BBO is a private corporation and can do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't violate laws in the USA. But for BBO to make any other decision than to follow the WBF policies in regard to this matter could displease the WBF, Zone 6, and member NBOs thereof. This wouldn't be good for BBO's business.

Fnally, look at the WBF web page for the NBO for Taiwan, the Chinese Taipei Contract Bridge Association. If this is used as the official name of the NBO in Taiwan, I don't think Fred and/or BBO should be criticized for using this name.

I realize this is a complex issue with strong feelings on all sides, but I don't think BBO Forum is the appropriate place to argue about it.

-Bob

[Rossoneri]

geller, on Oct 11 2007, 01:23 PM, said:

Stephen Tu Posted on Oct 11 2007, 01:37 PM

Quote

for play in the main bridge club, BBO is an independent, private company and can do as it pleases. It has no obligation to follow the WBF.

First, this is obviously a personal opinion. I don't speak for Fred or BBO or any other organization. It's certainly true that BBO is a private corporation and can do whatever it wants as long as it doesn't violate laws in the USA. But for BBO to make any other decision than to follow the WBF policies in regard to this matter could displease the WBF, Zone 6, and member NBOs thereof. This wouldn't be good for BBO's business.

Fnally, look at the WBF web page for the NBO for Taiwan, the Chinese Taipei Contract Bridge Association. If this is used as the official name of the NBO in Taiwan, I don't think Fred and/or BBO should be criticized for using this name.

I realize this is a complex issue with strong feelings on all sides, but I don't think BBO Forum is the appropriate place to argue about it.

-Bob

Well said. Let's not get politics involved into this.

[helene_t]

Stephen Tu, on Oct 11 2007, 06:37 AM, said:

Quote

As a practical matter BBO has no choice but to follow the official designation

Why is this? Perhaps it should for the purposes of Vugraph of the WBF championships, but for play in the main bridge club, BBO is an independent, private company and can do as it pleases. It has no obligation to follow the WBF.

AFAIK BBO uses membership of either IOC, WBF or UN as a criterion. Those multiple criteria give some citizens a choice - for example, English, Northern Irish, Scotish and Welsh players can use their WBF country or their UN country. We had a discussion as to whether the European Union should be a country choice, and it was denied on the same basis. There is no flag for Kosova either, a country in a position similar to that of Taiwan except that the Kosova situation may be a temporary thing that will find a stable solution within a few years, and it will become clear (albeit still not free from emotional reactions) whether Kosova becomes a BBO country.

I can imagine that BBO's policy with respect to Taiwan follows from such bureacratic criteria. Maybe they have been bend to please China and/or WBF, I dono. I can understand if Fred and Uday prefer not to discuss this sensitive issue here.

While I personally regret BBO's position when it comes to Taiwan, I can sorta understand Fred/Udays position, which is similar to that of WBF and many other organizations which might (we can't know) prefer to recognize Taiwan but cannot ignore economic realities.

Maybe a moraly tastier, and still neutral, policy would be to make the country field completely free. You could chose Taiwan, Kosova, Kurdistan, Corsica or Euskia, but also The Amish Nation, Atlantis, Eldorado or Disneyland.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Maybe a moraly tastier, and still neutral, policy would be to make the country field completely free. You could chose Taiwan, Kosova, Kurdistan, Corsica or Euskia, but also The Amish Nation, Atlantis, Eldorado or Disneyland.

Some people would use this opportunity to politicize their profile, which is to be avoided. BBO is a bridge site, not a propaganda site. So no.

[fred]

I have received dozens of e-mails concerning ths subject during the past few days. Many of these e-mails were identical to this post. Here is the response that I have been sending out:

Although I am not in a position to say “I understand how you feel”, I do pay attention to what is going on in the world and I am also the (unlucky!) person who is responsible for making flag-related decisions for BBO. I have therefore been in the middle of other flag-related disputes. For example, before we included the flag of Palestine we received a lot of angry e-mails from supporters of the Palestinians. After we decided to include this flag we received just as many angry e-mails from friends of Israel. When Macedonia became its own country we started to include its flag. This particular flag did not cause a problem, but many of our Greek members were deeply offended by our use of the name “Macedonia” itself. Then there are the people who get upset with me about my refusal to include flags like those of the European Union or regions of countries in which strong separatist movements exist (such as Quebec in Canada or the Basque areas of Spain).

Given that I am not Taiwanese, I cannot really “know how you feel”, but I know from this experience that flags are deeply emotional issues for a lot of people. I can assure you that I respect the pride you take in being Taiwanese and your desire to see Taiwan recognized as a country on BBO.

I am sure you can appreciate that in this case, as with all flag-related disputes among our members, I am truly in a no-win situation. No matter what I decide there will be large groups of BBO members who will be offended. I learned the hard way (as a result of the Palestine episode) that there is only one way to resolve such conflicts:

Our flag policies must be governed by clear rules and we must always adhere to these rules. Personal judgment must be removed from the equation.

Here are the rules that we established several years ago. A place (and its flag) will be included in the BBO list if and only if one of the following applies:

1) The place in question is a member state of the United Nations. In this case we will use the flag that is recognized by the UN.

2) The place in question has participated in a recent WBF World Teams Olympiad. In this case we use and flag that is recognized by the WBF.

For example, the Macedonian flag was added according to rule 1) and the Palestinian flag was under according to rule 2).

As you probably know, Taiwan and the Taiwanese flag had been on the BBO list since the very first days of our site in 2001. There were no rules at that time – I simply created a program that had flags from all places that I knew had large and active bridge communities. At the time I did not foresee that this would ever become a problem (mostly because I did not foresee BBO becoming as big and successful as it has become). It is only in the past few weeks that we have put out a version of the BBO client in which “Chinese Taipei” and the flag that is used by the WBF (and by the Olympics I think) are used instead of “Taiwan” and the Taiwanese flag.

The reason for this change was a complaint from the Chinese Contract Bridge Association (CCBA) that our inclusion of the name Taiwan and the flag of Taiwan were not appropriate. Their argument, like yours, was mostly political in nature. They said “Taiwan is not a country - it is part of China” where you said “Taiwan is its own country”. As you know there are many people throughout the world who would agree with the CCBA position and many people throughout the world that would agree with your position. Some of the people on both sides of this issue have strong emotions attached to their opinions. I personally believe that I am better educated in this area than most people outside of Taiwan and China. I do have a personal opinion as to what I would like to see happen in your part of the world in the future. However, I am not naïve enough to claim “I am right” and, even if I was, I cannot afford to let my personal political beliefs and wishes interfere with my decisions in this area.

The ONLY reasonable way for me to resolve these conflicts is to follow the rules that we have established. According to these rules the CCBA is correct – the name Taiwan and the Taiwanese flag should not appear in BBO. That is why we made the decision we did.

I hope you will believe me when I say that I was not happy to have to make this change. I have had the pleasure of visiting Taiwan and I have many friends in the Taiwanese bridge community. I have great deal of admiration for what Taiwan has already accomplished and I sincerely hope that Taiwan and its people have a bright future.

The bottom line is that the decision we made was not a value judgment or a political statement on the part of me or anyone else. It was simply a function of following our own rules. While it may be the case that our rules are not perfect, they have the advantage of being simple and sensible (to me at least). I think it is most unlikely that we will be changing these rules in the foreseeable future. I am sorry for that, but hopefully you can understand the position I am in.

Of course it is the case that, if and when Taiwan is accepted as a member state of the United Nations or the WBF allows Taiwan to compete using its own name and flag, I will immediately reinstate Taiwan and its flag in our list of countries. But until then I really have no choice except to follow our rules.

Regardless of how BBO deals with this extremely difficult (no-win) situation, I hope you continue to enjoy our site.

Regards,

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Fluffy]

All spearatist catalonians refuse to wera spanish flag on BBO and jsut set theirselves as 'other', I hate it, and I guess people from China would hate to see people from Taiwan/Taipei doing it.

[TimG]

Why bother with flags in the first place? Why can't people who want to simply state where they are from in their profile and leave it at that?

[fred]

TimG, on Oct 11 2007, 03:01 PM, said:

Why bother with flags in the first place? Why can't people who want to simply state where they are from in their profile and leave it at that?

In retrospect that would have been smart. Flags were originally included because I thought it was a cute feature. It never occurred to me that it would come to this...

For several months Uday has been trying to convince me that we should get rid of flags in the Flash version of BBO. I had been resisting this suggestion because I hear the following sort of comment from random BBO members all the time:

I just love to log in and see all the flags of all the people!

But the recent incident with the Taiwanese flag has served to move me a lot closer to Uday's position.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[helene_t]

fred, on Oct 11 2007, 05:09 PM, said:

For several months Uday has been trying to convince me that we should get rid of flags in the Flash version of BBO. I had been resisting this suggestion because I hear the following sort of comment from random BBO members all the time:

I just love to log in and see all the flags of all the people!

But the recent incident with the Taiwanese flag has served to move me a lot closer to Uday's position.

What about cities rather than countries? Of course few cities have symbols that are as recognizable as flags, and people living in smaller townships not on the list may be dissapointed, But if countries were still an option, people who dislike their country for political reasons could use a city of their region instead. And the city name "Taipei" would be acceptable to everyone.

Or maybe people could just indicate their approximate position on a World map, and then the flag would be replaced by a map of one's continent with a star at the relevant location.

[matmat]

another option could be to have native language(s) rather than origin, i think that may be a little less controversial (and a little more useful) , but i could be wrong

[blackshoe]

matmat, on Oct 11 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

another option could be to have native language(s) rather than origin, i think that may be a little less controversial (and a little more useful) , but i could be wrong

Yeah, but then you'd have USAians claiming their native language is English, and the English objecting.

[matmat]

blackshoe, on Oct 11 2007, 12:11 PM, said:

matmat, on Oct 11 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

another option could be to have native language(s) rather than origin, i think that may be a little less controversial (and a little more useful) , but i could be wrong

Yeah, but then you'd have USAians claiming their native language is English, and the English objecting.

yeah... could easily list "American" as a language... after all, there are differences. =)

[bid_em_up]

I'd just as soon be able to upload an image/thumbnail into the flag location in the new flash version.

Of course, then somebody has to police the images to either approve the images ahead of time or remove the offensive ones later.

[1eyedjack]

I don't know why this thread is in the "Offline Bridge" heading. The name of the country outside of the sphere of bridge is surely contentious, but what is being objected to here is the online treatment within BBO.

My suggested solution is this: Upload both Chinese Taipei AND Taiwan as options from which the player can choose. Yes, this would be contrary to BBO's current policy, but BBO's current policy is a self-imposed one and has such has the potential to be self unimposed should it conclude on a better one. And yes, this principle if extended to the whole world would add to Fred's workload. But if emotions run that strong then perhaps the resources are justified.

Of course I predict that were the choice available, few (relevant) individuals would exercise that choice in favour of loading the Chinese Tapei flag. But so what? The point is that BBO management will have disassociated itself from that decision. All that BBO are doing is providing enabling software. It cannot be accused of making a political statement if it provides all choices, but it might be so accused if it limits choice. On what grounds can mainland China possibly object to BBO for the fact that its members make a particular personal choice?

To my mind, what an individual chooses to call himself should carry more weight than the opinion of some other party. So my sympathies lie with the Palestinians in the previous argument with the Israeli position (I stress that I refer here only to the matter of flags in BBO - I do not choose to express an opinion generally regarding Palestinian v Israeli conflict in the wider arena). If someone living in Palestine chooses to call himself Israeli, then I would have no objection to his loading an Israeli flag.

[jillybean]

bid_em_up, on Oct 11 2007, 10:41 AM, said:

I'd just as soon be able to upload an image/thumbnail into the flag location in the new flash version.

Of course, then somebody has to police the images to either approve the images ahead of time or remove the offensive ones later.

Your idea of offensive is likely quite different from mine, so who decides what is ok? I think this would cause more headaches than flags and is best left well alone.