[Aberlour10]

Away from all political views to this subject (mine included), if the whole bridge world accepts the WBF rules, it should be possible in online bridge too.

Robert

[TimG]

Aberlour10, on Oct 11 2007, 02:25 PM, said:

Away from all political views to this subject (mine included), if the whole bridge world accepts the WBF rules, it should be possible in online bridge too.

Robert

Not all of us are members of the WBF (or any national bridge organization).

[DrTodd13]

fred, on Oct 11 2007, 07:09 AM, said:

TimG, on Oct 11 2007, 03:01 PM, said:

Why bother with flags in the first place?  Why can't people who want to simply state where they are from in their profile and leave it at that?

In retrospect that would have been smart. Flags were originally included because I thought it was a cute feature. It never occurred to me that it would come to this...

For several months Uday has been trying to convince me that we should get rid of flags in the Flash version of BBO. I had been resisting this suggestion because I hear the following sort of comment from random BBO members all the time:

I just love to log in and see all the flags of all the people!

But the recent incident with the Taiwanese flag has served to move me a lot closer to Uday's position.

The flags are also somewhat offensive to all of us anarchists. Flags just contribute to an us-versus-them mentality which is irrational and evil. My preference is to have a field for languages spoken and one for timezone. You can still write your country in the generic part of your profile if you wish.

[1eyedjack]

DrTodd13, on Oct 11 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

My preference is to have a field for languages spoken and one for timezone. You can still write your country in the generic part of your profile if you wish.

Under existing arrangements, you don't HAVE to choose a flag. What is the difference between electing to choose a flag (or not), and electing to write your country into the profile (or not)? Not that I disagree with the notion of having separate (additional?) fields for time zone and spoken languages.

[DrTodd13]

1eyedjack, on Oct 11 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Oct 11 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

My preference is to have a field for languages spoken and one for timezone.  You can still write your country in the generic part of your profile if you wish.

Under existing arrangements, you don't HAVE to choose a flag. What is the difference between electing to choose a flag (or not), and electing to write your country into the profile (or not)? Not that I disagree with the notion of having separate (additional?) fields for time zone and spoken languages.

There is no option not to choose a country/flag. There is only the option to choose the "Other" country/flag which uses the United Nations flag which I find only slightly less offensive than an individual country flag.

[fred]

DrTodd13, on Oct 11 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Oct 11 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Oct 11 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

My preference is to have a field for languages spoken and one for timezone.  You can still write your country in the generic part of your profile if you wish.

Under existing arrangements, you don't HAVE to choose a flag. What is the difference between electing to choose a flag (or not), and electing to write your country into the profile (or not)? Not that I disagree with the notion of having separate (additional?) fields for time zone and spoken languages.

There is no option not to choose a country/flag. There is only the option to choose the "Other" country/flag which uses the United Nations flag which I find only slightly less offensive than an individual country flag.

In the most recent version that caused all the controversy, the "other" flag has been changed to a plain white flag.

If you find that offensive then I surrender

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mrdct]

fred, on Oct 11 2007, 08:29 AM, said:

Here are the rules that we established several years ago. A place (and its flag) will be included in the BBO list if and only if one of the following applies:

1)      The place in question is a member state of the United Nations. In this case we will use the flag that is recognized by the UN.

2)      The place in question has participated in a recent WBF World Teams Olympiad. In this case we use and flag that is recognized by the WBF.

So how does Northern Ireland qualify for a flag on BBO?

[matmat]

while we're adding fields to the profile, how about one for the level of intoxication?

[blackshoe]

People can find the strangest, most innocuous things "offensive".

[fred]

mrdct, on Oct 11 2007, 11:32 PM, said:

fred, on Oct 11 2007, 08:29 AM, said:

Here are the rules that we established several years ago. A place (and its flag) will be included in the BBO list if and only if one of the following applies:

1)       The place in question is a member state of the United Nations. In this case we will use the flag that is recognized by the UN.

2)       The place in question has participated in a recent WBF World Teams Olympiad. In this case we use and flag that is recognized by the WBF.

So how does Northern Ireland qualify for a flag on BBO?

I added the Northern Ireland flag before there were clear rules. As I recall the organizers of the Lady Milne tournament made this request since a team from Northern Ireland was playing in their event which was scheduled to be on BBO vugraph. Since I was young and naive at the time I did not see any harm doing what they asked.

You are correct that it does not belong according to our rules, but I do not exactly like the prospect of removing a flag unless someone complains.

Congratulations for being the first person to ever complain about the Northern Ireland flag! I am actually not surprised - I predicted earlier today that you would write a post like this.

If you (or anyone else) truly finds the Northern Ireland flag to be deeply offensive, I will remove it from the next version of BBO, but I suspect (as usual) that you are just complaining for the usual reasons.

I would appreciate it if you could find something else to complain about (or even stop complaining completely - what a novel thought!). The last thing I need right now is to deal with another flag-related controversy.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[ccccwwww]

There is no solution to satisfy both parties involved in flag issue. UN & WBF rule is the least contentious prescription. If they complain, go fight to UN and WBF, just not here. I dont think BBO is the right place to express your political views, since those usually offensive to others and most people come here just for info relating to bridge.

[geller]

I don't see what the special problem with Northen Ireland is. In football (soccer) rather than a single UK team there are four teams from England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. The Republic of Ireland has a separate team. (Almost) everybody seems to be living with this. In bridge, Wales, Scotland, and England are all members of the European zone, but not Northern Ireland. Presumably this is only because no Northern Ireland bridge federation exists. (At least a web search failed to fnd one. My apologies if there is one.)

In the British isles in football (soccer) as well as bridge they have a quaint tradition of home internationals. In the case of football these involve only Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland but in bridge the Republic of Ireland also sometimes participated.

Of course I recognize that serious questions persist about Ireland, but if Fifa can recognize the existence of Northern Ireland, why can't BBO?

I really think there are better places than BBO Forum to discuss these issues.

-Bob

[mrdct]

fred, on Oct 11 2007, 07:21 PM, said:

Congratulations for being the first person to ever complain about the Northern Ireland flag! I am actually not surprised - I predicted earlier today that you would write a post like this.

Fred,

Thanks for your congratulatory sentiments, but I thought you were opposed to the use of sarcasm in debates on BBO forums.

I have no idea why you have inferred that I'm complaining about the Northern Ireland flag being available on BBO. I was just trying to identify if any additional flag recognition criteria exist for constituent entities of UN-recognised nations that do participate in meaningful international competition (such as the Camrose and the Lady Milne) but not in WBF events.

I think it is completely sensible to have a Northern Ireland flag available, particularly for vugraph where it would look quite odd for England, Scotland and Wales to all have their own flags and then have Northern Ireland competing under the UN flag (or now the white flag if watching BBOTV).

In all my contributions to the various threads on flag issues over the years, my only concern has been vugraph which has in the past been adversely impacted by the Taiwan/Chinese Taipei issue; to the detriment of bridge fans who have not been able to watch bridge legends such as Patrick Huang.

I believe a straight-out alignment of the flags available in BBO to the flags recognised by the WBF is clearly the way to go. Then any issues that people have with which countries are recognised or not can be referred to the WBF.

Best regards,

Dave.

[mrdct]

geller, on Oct 11 2007, 08:39 PM, said:

In bridge, Wales, Scotland, and England are all members of the European zone, but not Northern Ireland.  Presumably this is only because no Northern Ireland bridge federation exists. (At least a web search failed to fnd one.  My apologies if there is one.)

Bob,

There is the Northern Ireland Bridge Union which is a member of the Irish Bridge Union and is affiliated to Bridge Great Britian.

It is a union of clubs grouped into six areas — Antrim/Derry, Armagh/South Down, Belfast, East Down, North Down, Fermanagh/Tyrone. There are 39 clubs throughout Northern Ireland now actively affiliated to the NIBU with a total of 2646 registered members.

Interestingly, the Irish Bridge Union (IBU) is a confederation of the Contract Bridge Association of Ireland and the Northern Ireland Bridge Union. The IBU organises participation in European and World Championships on behalf of All-Ireland. So bridge is one of a number of sports where the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are able to field a combined team; although I'm not sure how often any Northern Ireland players have made it into an All-Ireland bridge team.

Wikipedia reports that "many sports are organised on an All-Ireland basis, for example basketball, boxing, cricket, curling, Gaelic football, golf, field hockey, horse racing, hurling, rugby league and rugby union. A notable exception is football".

All quite interesting and quite a unique situation I guess.

As John Lennon said, "imagine there's no countries ..."

Dave.

[geller]

Theanks for the info, David. The following is a link to the home page of the NORTHERN IRELAND BRIDGE UNION.

Incidentally, here is a link to the flags of all the FIFA member countries.

What I find slightly interesting is that notwithstanding the fact the the Ireland team in bridge represents both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, the WBF home page shows only the flag for the Republic of Ireland and no one seems to be unhappy with this.

The complexity of the issues involved suggests the wisdom of BBO's following the lead of the WBF and not getting involved in controversies regarding flags.

-Bob

[Codo]

I am not used to be silent, but I guess there is a big silent majority who loves the flags. So I simply want to have here just one more voice who wants them.

I believe that BBO should stick toits easy rules about this issue.
And I really hope that the moaning of some unhappy will not change this.

Luckily there are tenthousands of visitors to BBO. There is no way to make them all happy about a single subject.

This discussion starts with the complaint about a single flag. And as much as I can understand the personal reasons of this poster, I would not change the general rules for him and other individuals who suffer the same fate.

[1eyedjack]

England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland happen to have their own flags, outside Bridge, for reasons steeped in history. That they appear to have their own flags in BBO appears also to be an accident of history, as I gather from Fred's post above that they would not individually qualify under the current policy, which appears to apply only to the creation of new flags, pre-policy flags being permitted to stay. (I am not convinced that this is a good idea. Perhaps ditching the non-qualifying pre-policy flags would be a good idea. It would raise a one-off storm of protest, but when that is over it may prevent a longer term festering resentment born of the history of which the membership at large will be broadly ignorant.)

The UK treatment tends to reinforce my opinion that the existing policy is too proscriptive, and flags, if permitted at all, should be allowed to proliferate without limit (subject to resources, mainly human, and demand in favour ignoring demand in dissent). In the UK we have good, high-level competition between the four elements, in the form of the annual Camrose match. Such events are worthwhile viewgraphing. But for the apparent offence that they generate, flags are a useful visual aid to instantly matching players and teams for the benefit of the gallery. Limiting the flags to WBF lists would not assist in that end in the Camrose.

So I think it would have been a shame if the serendipidous accident of history on BBO had not happened and Camrose viewgraphs lacked the ability to show the distinction in the flags. I don't know if the UK is unique in this coincidence. If it is, then it is not a great argument for changing an entire policy. It would surprise me, however, but then I am continuously surprised.

Those who take a principled objection to flags presumably take a principled objection to any international Bridge event where players represent their countries. I have a microscopic fleck of sympathy for that position. I have always found the nationalistic breast beating at sports from football interternationals to the Olympics "medal tables" always jars with me, but this is countered by the organisational and funding convenience that enables individuals to compete.

I understand Fred's momentary loss of patience in an issue that he sees as a no-win situation that uses up his time and gets him nothing but blame. Personally I did not se mrdct's post as anything more than an observation, but perhaps there is history there as well

I think that the flags are fun, colourful and in some cases educational. Let's keep them, I say, and free them up and expand them. If that is a big job, then, Fred, delegate the job.

[mrdct]

geller, on Oct 12 2007, 12:53 AM, said:

What I find slightly interesting is that notwithstanding the fact the the Ireland team in bridge represents both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, the  WBF home page shows only the flag for the Republic of Ireland and no one seems to be unhappy with this.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I think the All-Ireland flag used in sporting events and the flag of the Republic of Ireland are one in the same thing.

I suspect that the reason nobody gets particularly uptight about it is that the Irish tricolour is intended as a symbol of peace and unity, not just of Ireland, but of the two distinct peoples within the island, those being the Roman Catholic Irish (Green) and the Protestant Unionist traditions (Orange) being united by peace (White).

[geller]

Maybe Fred should change his policy to include not only flags from the IOC and WBF, but also flags recognized by FIFA (the intl soccer assn). This would include the flags from the four "home countries" of the UK (England, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland).

[helene_t]

geller, on Oct 12 2007, 10:05 AM, said:

Maybe Fred should change his policy to include not only flags from the IOC and WBF, but also flags recognized by FIFA (the intl soccer assn). This would include the flags from the four "home countries" of the UK (England, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland).

What does this site have to do with soccer? If this argument extends to any sport, then maybe Lolland should have its BBO flag since they participated in the World championship steamroller polo (not recognized by the IOC, though).