[awm]

Suppose the auction starts 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠. How many spades does responder show? Are spades set as trump, or could you still play somewhere else? Is opener's first priority to bid out his shape or to cuebid for spades?

[ArcLight]

>Suppose the auction starts 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠. How many spades does responder show? Are spades set as trump, or could you still play somewhere else? Is opener's first priority to bid out his shape or to cuebid for spades?

The 2♦ bid establishes the game force, with less than 4 Spade support.
The 2♠ confirms Spades are trumps, probably 3 card support, could be 2.
With 2, responder may look for 3NT.

Responder can see Opener is something like 5-4, 5-5,6-4, 6-5.
Opener is showing a heart suit, because with just crap he could instead rebid 2♠.

Openers priority:

1) show 4 trump support
2) make the game force


[this is from Mike Lawrence's 2/1 CD]

[mike777]

1) 2s sets trump very very often
2) Opener should expect 3 spades but of course there may be some rare 2 spade or 4 spade hand.
3) I want opener to cuebid Ace and not bid out shape at this point.
4) With a really junky opener partner can choose to not bid ace but show shape, with a more "normal opening bid" cue Ace.

[Winstonm]

Like everything in bidding, a lot depends on the methods you employ for other bids. For example, what would 1S-2D-2H-3S mean? Whatever it means, it is a hand that is excluded from the 1S-2D-2H-2S auction. Same with 1S-2D-2H-4S.

And then there are the other raises: Jacoby, Splinters, and the like.

I have a firm belief that playing 2/1, the more room a bid takes up the more precise should be its meaning because 2/1 is designed to be room saving.

So for me, 1S-2D-2H-3S is much like a Serious 3N bid. It is in a sense a "picture bid" in that it shows excellent 4 card trump support and a slammish looking hand.

1S-2D-2H-4S is equally a picture bid. It shows good spades, good diamonds, and denies a red suit control.

That leaves 1S-2D-2H-2S to cover a lot of hands. Some are excluded due to Jacoby raise with balanced hands and 4 trump and the use of Modified Bergen with game going 3-card support hands without a good minor.

Whatever hands that are left are bid with a 2S rebid as I play it. As for patterning out or cue bidding, I am more inclined to hear partner's evaluation of his hand that forcing him to show his pattern to me and the rest of the world. Partner can look at his hand and tell if it has slammish looking minimum cards, slammish looking good cards, no-trump looking weakish values, or just a plain old vanilla opening bid.

This auction brings up another of my pet ideas - the "Serious Self Raise". After 1S-2D-2H-2S we are in a game going auction, so why not separate the weaker slam tries from the good ones with 3S? There isn't much use for this unless you are required to pattern, so another method is to cue bid with minimum shapely cards and controls and bid a Serious 3S with a stronger hand.

Winston

[mikeh]

Justin: first of all, welcome back.

Secondly, I think that your second point actually argues for my preferred approach: that 2♠ shows at least 2 cards.... usually 3+, but, on difficult hands, 2 cards.

The requirement that opener make a descriptive, pattern-showing bid, fits very well with this approach, allowing the partnership to back into other fits or notrump, without the risks inherent in forcing responder to bid 2N on xxx in the 4th suit.

It comes down to cost-benefit analysis. My experience (which is certainly a lot less than yours on an annual basis but is probably equivalent on a career basis ) suggests that there is almost no cost to playing 2♠ as usually 3+ but occasionally, on specific hands, 2 while there is a real cost to wrongsiding 3N or simply getting there with a combined holding of Jx opposite xxx (opener with AQxxx KQxx Jx Jx will be extremely pleased to bid 3N after 1♠ 2♦ 2♥ 2N.

There are a lot worse things than bidding a 5-2 major suit game contract

I think this poll was suggested by a post of mine in which I suggested that, over 2♥, 2♠ was the correct bid with Kx QJx AQJxx xxx (in 2/1)

[luke warm]

i can't imagine 2s having fewer than 3 spades

[the hog]

2-3 S, never ever 4 of course as there are a myriad other ways to bid hands with 4 card supports. It certainly does not set S. Opener will describe his hand.

In the sequence shown, it denies a good 5 card D suit together with 3S+ to an honour.

[awm]

Let me preface this by saying I don't consider myself a serious 2/1 player. In all my regular partnerships, the sequence 1♠-2♦-2♥-2♠ is non-forcing and normally a doubleton spade. This obviously misses out on the potential advantages of 2/1 in slam bidding, but gets us to an excellent partial on many fairly common hands.

It seems like there could certainly be advantages to using 2♠ in this auction as sort of a "relay" just to find out more from opener... kind of like mikeh describes. However, my experience talking to people who ARE serious 2/1 players, is that most treat this 2♠ bid as showing a definite (3+) fit in spades. As to whether opener should cuebid or pattern next, it seems like people are fairly evenly divided although the stronger players more often seem to prefer pattern.

[whereagles]

Even for people who play non-gf 2/1, this 2S rebid shows a fit.

[the hog]

Wrong again Whereagles. If you play a system where 2/1 is not a gf, you may find yourself having to bid 2S on a small doubleton in auctions like
1S 2C 2H 2S on xx Kx xxxx AQJxx

[awm]

I wouldn't say this is a "right" or "wrong" matter. It has more to do with style and personal preferences. There are several possible meanings for the 2♠ bid in a non-GF 2/1 style:

(1) Doubleton, preference, non-forcing invite. This is what I play, and it's great when you have a declined invite and you get to play 2♠ instead of having to play 2NT. It also gives you an "out" when you have a bare invite without help in the fourth suit. Of course, you potentially lose out on the advantages of the other styles.

(2) Three-card limit raise. This allows you to stop at the two-level on a declined limit raise, and also gives responder the chance to identify side values in the process of making a limit raise. Certainly this is more effective than a 2/1-style limit raise where you have to bid forcing notrump and then jump to the 3-level. However, it leaves a "hole" when you have an invite with no clear fit and no stopper in the fourth suit, and also means you have to play a lot more 2NT contracts.

(3) Same as in game-forcing 2/1. You win on the slam auctions, but lose on the partscores.

(4) Either of the first two, might seem to get the best of both. But it seems kind of hard to cope with though, as partner will often be uncertain whether to bid on with a shapely minimum that might make 4♠ opposite a real fit.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Aug 20 2005, 04:59 AM, said:

Wrong again Whereagles. If you play a system where 2/1 is not a gf, you may find yourself having to bid 2S on a small doubleton in auctions like
1S 2C 2H 2S on xx Kx xxxx AQJxx

Wrong, hoggie. Maybe in australia people play like that, but in some countries in Europe

1S 2C
2H 2S = honest support, invitational

1S 2C
2H 3S = gf support, slam try

1S 2C
2H 4S = gf but not interested in slam

Incidently, the hand you showed rebids 2NT. You might not like the rebid, but that's how we play around here, some world champions included.

[Walddk]

whereagles, on Aug 20 2005, 08:32 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Aug 20 2005, 04:59 AM, said:

Wrong again Whereagles. If you play a system where 2/1 is not a gf, you may find yourself having to bid 2S on a small doubleton in auctions like
1S 2C 2H 2S on xx Kx xxxx AQJxx

Wrong, hoggie. Maybe in australia people play like that, but in some countries in Europe

1S 2C
2H 2S = honest support, invitational

1S 2C
2H 3S = gf support, slam try

1S 2C
2H 4S = gf but not interested in slam

Incidently, the hand you showed rebids 2NT. You might not like the rebid, but that's how we play around here, some world champions included.

Yes, we have had this discussion before, and 2NT is arguably the worst bid I have seen (read about) since January 21, 1936.

xx
KJx
xxx
AQxxx

1♠ - 2♣
2♥ - 2NT!??

Scary. They will probably never lead diamonds against NT, unless they have been paying attention to the auction of course.

Roland

[coyot]

My agreements are:

Use a system raise with GF values and full support if possible.
2/1 is one of such system raises, promising 12-15 HCP with non-balanced hand.
(16+ via 2NT, 12-15 balanced via 3NT).

When playing simpler raises, I recommend having 2NT as 12+ with 3card or at least limit raise with 4card.

This will give you 2/1 as a bid that either denies support (In that case, over a new suit, continue bidding your shape) or promises support and VERY good side suit.

Imagine a hand like Kxx-x-AKJ10xx-xxx. You can see 11 tricks in 2 suits - and the best you can do is tell partner by 2/1 and then showing full support that you really HAVE a good source of tricks.

With a doubleton spade honor, the bidding after 1♠-2♦-2♥ should be:
2NT with no extra shape, showing stopper. (3NT same and stronger? or weaker?)
3♣ with no extra shape, asking for stopper
3♦ 6card
3♥ 4card

[Fluffy]

I'm with whereagles, you might not like to bid 2NT without ♦ stopper, but the system says you should bid it with 10-11 without fit nor 6♣s. Sure you can apply your judgement and bid someting else, but that doesn't mean 2NT isn't correct.

[jdulmage]

generally 3 spades, could be 2 if he expects misfit is coming up.

[the hog]

Fluffy, on Aug 20 2005, 07:42 PM, said:

I'm with whereagles, you might not like to bid 2NT without ♦ stopper, but the system says you should bid it with 10-11 without fit nor 6♣s. Sure you can apply your judgement and bid someting else, but that doesn't mean 2NT isn't correct.

What system is this precisely, Fluffy? The question has been posted in the 2/1 and Sayc forum. The original poster specifically mentions 2/1 in the title of the post, so why do you bring in 10-11? However as you have introduced a different topic, I will respond to that as well. In sayc with 10-12 and a 5 card suit you bid 2/1 and then give preference on a doubleton to opener's major when you don't have a 2NT rebid.

In a 2/1 system you have various options depending on the style you play. As the 2/1 bid is gf, you have picture bids at the 4 level, a jump to the 3 level to show a decent 5 card suit and 3 card support to an honour, a 2NT bid to show a blanced 12-14 with a stopper, and a 2S bid as a catch all.

You are making the mistake of responding in the lingua franca of your your own country rather than responding to the original question.

[Winstonm]

Nothing like a clear-cut "maybe" to cause a stir.

This is simply a problem that some hands are unbiddable and you have to decide which misinformation you want to emphasize. I believe the original post stipulated 2D created a game force.

The 2S bidders seem to want to be able to deny a club stop.
The 2N bidders want to gurantee at least 3 spades, show shape, and to heck with the stoppers.

There are other methods as well:
1) Raise the second suit of opener with 3 card support
2) Bid the 4th suit as a general force without 3 spades and without a stop.

I wouldn't be unhappy if when holding xx, KQJ, AKJxx, xxx that over 2H partner didn't decide the best move might not be 3H.

The give up I chose was the natural 3C bid. Now 2S shows at least 3 card support, 2N has a diamonds stopper, and to heck with the rest.

Who knows what is best on average? Probably more important that partner knows what is going on and is comfortable with the useage.

Winston

[hrothgar]

In what I'm sure is a shocking development, I agree with Ron, Roland, and Winston. I think that Winston has already identified the most crucial point about this sequence:

"the more room a bid takes up the more precise should be its meaning"

Given the choice between using 2♠ and 2NT as the "garbage bid", I strongly prefer using 2♠ - there

I find it interesting to note the extent to which Whereagles disagrees with this philosophy... Case in point: His suggestion that

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 4♠

should be used to show a minimum strength 2/1 with no interest in slam. Minimum strength 2/1 responses are by far the most common hand holdings. Given that opener's strength is quite wide ranging, it would seem reasonable to use a modicum of bidding space to explore level or maybe even strain...