[inquiry]

hrothgar, on Aug 21 2005, 10:51 PM, said:

I find it interesting to note the extent to which Whereagles disagrees with this philosophy... Case in point: His suggestion that

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 4♠

should be used to show a minimum strength 2/1 with no interest in slam. Minimum strength 2/1 responses are by far the most common hand holdings. Given that opener's strength is quite wide ranging, it would seem reasonable to use a modicum of bidding space to explore level or maybe even strain...

I agree that 2♠ should be the yuck bid. But I want to say something about

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 4♠

I use this to show a hand with 3/4♠, 5+♦, at least 2♥ and 2♣, and (importantly) no A or K of clubs or Ace or King of ♥s. So he has enough to force to game, and all or almost all of his values are in these two suits. This is a picture bid, and works very well. Opener is ideally placed to know how to continue.

Typical hands

KQxx xx AKQxx xx

AQxx xx AQJxx xx

KJx xx AKQJxx xx

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ

Things like that

[pclayton]

2S for me shows 3+ trump. I don't automatically raise with 4 trump if I have a decent side suit. Isn't that one of the reasons we play 2/1 in the 1st place?

In the given auction, opener patterns through 3S and so does responder. If responder or opener skip the pattern sequences, it is a picture jump.

Once we hit 3 of our major, cue bidding and friv 3N start.

[mike777]

Typical hands

KQxx xx AKQxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

AQxx xx AQJxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

KJx xx AKQJxx xx
1s=2d=2h=2s=slam try. cue bid partner.'FAST ARRIVAL"

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ
1s=2d=2h=4s=minimum 14-15 hcp hand with 3 spades very often."FAST ARRIVAL"

Why complicate, just support with support.

Yes I am reading in MILES new book how he prefers 4s to be picture bid, slam try, excellent trumps, I am not convinced.

[the hog]

Typical hands

KQxx xx AKQxx xx
1s=2D followed by 3S
AQxx xx AQJxx xx
1S - 2D followed by a picture jump

KJx xx AKQJxx xx
1s=2d=2h=S=slam try. together with Serious

Why complicate, just support with support.

[awm]

I think the idea of higher bids carrying more information is a good argument for 4th suit as a punt. If 3♣ is "natural" then surely this is more frequent than a 2NT bid (which essentially shows 2353 exactly with a club stopper). In fact the natural 3♣ call can give opener something of a problem in deciding whether to raise or bid 3NT.

A general rule of using 2NT with clubs (or just a club stopper) and 3♣ as a punt will make sure the 2NT call is more frequent. This is also nice because 2NT is low enough that opener can pattern out effectively. You'll find club fits when you want them on an auction like 1♠-2♦-2♥-2NT-3♣.

While the fourth suit as a "punt" can potentially be pretty high in some auctions, it describes an extremely specific hand. For example, take 1♠-2♣-2♥-3♦. This bid essentially denies holding three spades, four hearts, six clubs, or a stopper in diamonds. It basically has to be exactly 2335 shape with Jxx or worse diamonds. Opener's pretty well placed to set the strain here I would think. On the other hand, if 3♦ were "natural" that could describe a much wider range of hands.

[jdeegan]

Jlall, on Aug 19 2005, 04:13 PM, said:

1) a 2/1 then a raise of the major shows 3+ trumps (usually 3, but sometimes you just have 4 and wanted to start with 2 of your minor to show your length). Yes you can run into problems on some VERY specific hands, but you pay off long run easily by making this show 3+ trumps. With xxx in the unbid suit i bid 2N and take my chances. even if partner has xx they may break 4-4, and its not clear we have a better spot. if he has a singleton we'll hear about it. and if he also has xxx it may be the only way to find NT. The gains of being able to set trumps at such a low level and be in a GF are huge, much greater than catering to a specific hand type that rarely comes up.

2) I *strongly* believe opener should pattern out at this point. Cuebidding can wait, opener can show his exact shape (almost)! That is so big for responder to know. 3m shows 3, 2N shows 5422, 3H shows 5-5+ 3S shows 6-4+. This is one of the strongest starts in a 2/1 auction I believe, and responder is in great shape to judge his cards.

Justin's analysis is persuasive as it creates the occasional possibiliy of a hero auction when opener has a stiff club opposite no wasted club values and a fitting diamond card to provide lots of tricks. You can be cold for six with:

Q10x
x
AKJxx
QJxx

opposite

AKJxx
Axxx
Qxx
x

that's 27 HCP, folks, and no distribution more exotic than 5-4-3-1. Neither hand is much better than a minimum, and there is a plentitude of wasted values.

My concern here is generated by the infamous invitational diamond hand. If you play 2D followed by 3D as invitational, then what do you do (as responder) with 13+ HCP and 2-3-6-2 distribution? Or worse yet 2-3-7-1? Partner's hand is so far unlimited, and 6D is in the air a far as you are concerned and you may need to decide whether it is best to play 4S or 3NT or 5D.

But if you can't temporize with 2S, UR skrewed. The best bid, clearly, is the relay bid of 2 hippogryphs, asking partner to further clarify his hand, but tournament directors these days just don't seem to have as much of a sense of humor as they used to.

Like most bidding agreements there is a trade off involved. In one case you get an occasional 'hero' 6S. With the other you get a few more 6D contracts and avoid playing a silly 5D contract when 3NT or 4S (on the 5-2) is best. Analyzing this problem in terms of which one comes up more often would require a lot of very cleverly designed simulations. Intuitively, I guess (???) the two situations probably come up with roughly the same frequency.

[mike777]

I am a huge advocate of bidding shape but shape where your hcp are.
Even though I am in minority, saying cuebid after suit agreement do not bid shape that can still work out. But you need to be bidding where your hcp are.

On your 27 hcp example hand:
1s=2d(14+)
3d=3s(mild slam try)
4h=4s( club suit problems)
?

On this bidding, opener may or may not choose to bid on. In any case trusting partner to have hcp in the bid suits, spades and D makes a huge difference, as do tens and nines. Try bidding out your shape on this shape but not having hcp in your bid suits. DISASTER!

[the hog]

Mike you are talking absolute nonsense. In the auction you posted, 3N is a serious slam try afeter 3S, and 4C would be a non serious try with 1st or 2nd round club control, 4D shows a/k/q of D and no 1st or 2nd round C control.

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Aug 22 2005, 06:30 AM, said:

I agree that 2♠ should be the yuck bid. But I want to say something about

1♠ - 2♦
2♥ - 4♠

I use this to show a hand with 3/4♠, 5+♦, at least 2♥ and 2♣, and (importantly) no A or K of clubs or Ace or King of ♥s.

Picture jumps are a VERY reasonable treatment
However, I consider this philosophy far removed from "fast arrivial"

[david_c]

hrothgar, on Aug 22 2005, 12:42 PM, said:

Picture jumps are a VERY reasonable treatment
However, I consider this philosophy far removed from "fast arrivial"

Indeed. And, isn't that a good thing?

[Winstonm]

Another little twist for those of you who play Bergern raises aslo helps eliminate some holdings from the given auction.

I use a reverse structure of Bergen where 3C shows a limit 4-card raise OR a 3-card game forcing raise without a good outside suit.

This takes nothing away from the Bergen raise and allows much clarification.

1S-3C* *Bergen limit raise or forcing 3-card raise.
3D* *Requests clarification and is game forcing. Responder bids 3S with
the limit raise and anything else shows a game forcing 3-card raise.
With a hand that would not accept, opener bids 3S and responder
with the game forcing hand raises or can bid 3N.

I also use the picture jump concept to deny controls but more for consistency and memory than anything else. As 1S-2D-2S-4S is used as a picture bid, it is easier to remember that other secondary jumps are this as well. The only sequence we use as fast arrival is 1S-2C/D/H-2N-4S.

Winston

[inquiry]

mike777, on Aug 22 2005, 12:37 AM, said:

.

A lot to answer here, as a fan of picture jumps, so let me start with richards comment. Fast arrival is fine, when nothing else will do. But picture jumps, as a treatment is much better than fast arrival. Read fred's article on (i think) improving 2/1 were he discusses picture jumps for instance. If you have to keep Priinciple of fast arrival, you can have your cake and eat it too using responders jump rebid of 4 of his minor as this picture jump, and 4M as the PFA. I use to play that, but have since changed my mine. Besides, that was a bit much to introduce in the concept of PFA in reply to the jump to 4S.

Quote

Quoting Mike777:

KQxx xx AKQxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

AQxx xx AQJxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

KJx xx AKQJxx xx
1s=2d=2h=2s=slam try. cue bid partner.'FAST ARRIVAL"

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ
1s=2d=2h=4s=minimum 14-15 hcp hand with 3 spades very often."FAST ARRIVAL"

Why complicate, just support with support.

These hands are horrible jacoby hands (bergen or otherwise). Show your five card suit first then show support. Since a five card suit is a source of tricks. What could be easier. After 1S-2D-2H, 1S-2D-3D, the 4S bid shows exaclty the same hand. Good spade support, five card diamond suit, enough to force to game, no singleton or void in a side suit, no side suit A or K. Opener usually can sketch responders hand on piece of paper by simply looking at his own hand. And, importantly, this simplifies other bidding. Let's see why...If responder has a "control" in a side suit and support, in addition to his five card suit, he will not leap to 4S. Thus, the non-leap becomes better defined, and allows the exchange of information more easily (As we will see shortly).

1S-2D-2H-3S <<--- five diamonds+, spade support, a control in H or C for sure
1S- 2D - 2S - 3S <<--- five diamonds+, control in hearts and or clubs
1S -2D - 2S - 4C <<--- five diamonds+, spades, ♣ splinter, no ♥ control
1S - 2D - 2H - 4C <<--- five diamonds+, spades, ♣ splinter, no ♥ control. Some play this as splinter for second suit, I do not.
Of course, 1S - 2D - 2S - 4S = is just to play oppoiste minimum 2S response.


The "trick here" is the splinter denies a cover in the "fourth" (other) suit. Let's take jdeegan's example hand

Quote

Q10x
x
AKJxx
QJxx

opposite

AKJxx
Axxx
Qxx
x

1S - 2D
2S - 3S
3NT - 4♦


You bid 3♠ because you can'tt splinter in ♥ now like you would if partner bid 2♠, but this 3♠ bid still promises 5+♦, 3+♠ and a control in ♣ or ♥/

3NT =serious 3NT or if you play it non-serious 3NT, this is a tweener.

4♦ = no ♣ control, by rule therefore, must include a ♥ control.

Tell me, you don't easily bid slam on this auction now?

Now imagine same exact south hand, and the bidding goes 1S-2D-2H-4S. On this auction, partner has five+diamonds, 3+♠. Here you can count 5♠+5♦+1♥ trick. Do you blindly bid slam and hope where there is 11, there maybe 12? Do you stop as you can see only 11 tricks? Do you waste time with blackwood? The answer is no. If partner has Six diamonds you have slam, find out that. That is no need for exclusion blackwood or cue-bidding after this picture jump, I use cheapest cue-bid to ask for slam with six ♦'s, lacking that, bid side suit with Qx (5♦ shows one most difficult to bid). .So I end up in slam opposite Qxx xx AKJxxx xx and five spades opposite Qxxx xx AKJxx xx, and a choice to bid slam or not opposite Qxxx Qx AKJxx xx when partner shows the heart queen and only five diamonds.

You will find the use of a responder second round splinter to show shortness in the splnter suit, and no control in the "other suit" very descriptive too. When you put together the three picture jumps,

1) 1M - 4m = 6+ solid m, good M support, no side A or K (shortness ok clearly)
2) 1M - new suit - any - 4M with jump = hand like I quoted earlier
3) 1M - new suit - 2 any - jump new suit = splinter, no control in "fourth suit"

And then there is these two auctions which should have very specific meanings. 4) 1M - 2m - 2New - 4m
5) 1M -2m - 2M - 4m

As I said at the top of this post, it is possible to add the "picture jump" definition to these bids, but it gets a little fuzzy. What if partner raises 2D to 3D, what is the picture bid? Surely not 4D, and now 4S would be realatively undefined if 4D was typically the picture jump. So, for simplicity all 2-over-one responses followed by jump to four of partners major are picture jumps with the exception when opener rebids his suit at the two level. Here, 4M has to be to play.

So, I play auction 5 as a picture jump with good intermediates in the side suits. A hand like, KTx QT AKQxx QJx would be perfect for the 1S - 2D -2S -4D jump. If you catch patenr with AQxxx Kx xx Axxx slam will still be bid. While auction 4, I reserve for fit with the second suit, and no control in the unbid suit.

I wrote several long pieces on picture jumps and picture splinters here last year, with the premise that second round splinter bids in GF auctons should also convey info about the fourth suit as well.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Aug 21 2005, 11:37 PM, said:

Typical hands

KQxx xx AKQxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

AQxx xx AQJxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

KJx xx AKQJxx xx
1s=2d=2h=2s=slam try. cue bid partner.'FAST ARRIVAL"

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ
1s=2d=2h=4s=minimum 14-15 hcp hand with 3 spades very often."FAST ARRIVAL"

Why complicate, just support with support.

Yes I am reading in MILES new book how he prefers 4s to be picture bid, slam try, excellent trumps, I am not convinced.

I strongly disagree with the use of Jacoby on these types of hands - why deemphasize the main feature of the hand, the long good side suit - especially the second hand as the diamond King is critical to how good the hand becomes - will Jacoby tell you pard holds: Kxxxxx, Ax, Kxx, Ax - a virtual laydown grand?

For me, Jacoby is for hands that don't have any other good descriptive bid available - the flatter hand types normally.

KJxx
Axx
Jxx
AQxx

This to me is the classic Jacoby hand - its relative value is totally dependent on partner's shape and high card location, which is what you are tying to find out by using Jacoby in the first place.

Using Jacoby the way you suggest is certainly possible and with partnership agreement can be very playable, but I place it in the "captaincy" style of bidding, where one hand takes control and the other answers - which works great when you have a hand good enough to steer; however, the vast majority of the time neither hand is that good and it takes delicate inquiry, judgement, and hand evaluation by each partner to maximize results.

Winston

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Aug 21 2005, 11:57 PM, said:

What system is this precisely, Fluffy? The question has been posted in the 2/1 and Sayc forum. The original poster specifically mentions 2/1 in the title of the post

The question has arised as a reply from this topic, and it has stated on a system where 2/1 is not GF, therefore it doesn't mean sayc at all. Adn the original poster has nothing to do with it.

I dunno sayc, but on the systems I know, where 2/1 is not GF, 2NT rebid by responder shows a invitational strenght without fit hand.

[Winstonm]

Ben:

Yours is a wonderfully well-conceived treatment - in fact the only hole I see in it is that it seems you must assume a playable trump suit.

I use a similar concept but it is less precise and relies more on partnership judgments.

1S-2D-2H-2S-3D* *We call these "Sniffer" hands - minimum hand types with good
controls and a "filler card" in responder's suit. The concept
being can we find 10 tricks in spades/diamonds, an Ace and
a ruff for twelve on the 28/29 point hands? Now 3S by
responder says: I still have
interest but I'm a little concerned about trumps. 4S-no
interest.
Further cue bid interest with no reason to worry about trumps.

1S-2D-2H-2S-4D* Still sniffing. My diamond holding suggests no losers
opposite a 2 honor suit: AKxxx, AJxxx, KQxxx, etc.
This does not guarantee a club control. Maybe it should.

1S-2D-2H-2S-3S* This replaces "Serious 3N" - it is "Serious Self Raise".

1S-2D-2H-4C* *Solid diamonds and a club singleton - hearts in question.

1S-2D-2H-4D *Solid diamonds with no controls in hearts/clubs

Regardless of method, this is a really good post as it is an area of bidding about which every serious partnership should have disctinct understandings.

Winston

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Aug 22 2005, 08:08 AM, said:

mike777, on Aug 21 2005, 11:37 PM, said:

Typical hands

KQxx xx AKQxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

AQxx xx AQJxx xx
1s=2nt=bergen jacoby

KJx xx AKQJxx xx
1s=2d=2h=2s=slam try. cue bid partner.'FAST ARRIVAL"

Kxx Qxx KQJxx QJ
1s=2d=2h=4s=minimum 14-15 hcp hand with 3 spades very often."FAST ARRIVAL"

Why complicate, just support with support.

Yes I am reading in MILES new book how he prefers 4s to be picture bid, slam try, excellent trumps, I am not convinced.

I strongly disagree with the use of Jacoby on these types of hands - why deemphasize the main feature of the hand, the long good side suit - especially the second hand as the diamond King is critical to how good the hand becomes - will Jacoby tell you pard holds: Kxxxxx, Ax, Kxx, Ax - a virtual laydown grand?

For me, Jacoby is for hands that don't have any other good descriptive bid available - the flatter hand types normally.

KJxx
Axx
Jxx
AQxx

This to me is the classic Jacoby hand - its relative value is totally dependent on partner's shape and high card location, which is what you are tying to find out by using Jacoby in the first place.

Using Jacoby the way you suggest is certainly possible and with partnership agreement can be very playable, but I place it in the "captaincy" style of bidding, where one hand takes control and the other answers - which works great when you have a hand good enough to steer; however, the vast majority of the time neither hand is that good and it takes delicate inquiry, judgement, and hand evaluation by each partner to maximize results.

Winston

What?
Getting to the grand is simple.

1s=2nt
3nt(good hand, 6 card spades)=4d=cue
4h(cue)=4nt=rkc
5c=5nt(specific K ask)

HOG and Ben if you guys want to delay showing your 4 card support to tell partner your D. that is fine. I just think it is more complicated, not better. In a detailed partnership many things can work. In 10 second pickup partnership, saying 2/1 and full Bergen raises is often about as full discussion as one has on BBO.

1) I prefer to have partner describe their hand to me, not other way around.
2) I prefer to show support immed.

[whereagles]

Guys, the sequences I mentioned

1♠ 2♣
2♥ 2/3/4♠ = 3-card support inv/gf extras/gf min

apply to the french standard system, where a 2/1 is not game-forcing. This is, I think, what Fluffy plays. You may not like this structure, but that's how many people play in Europe.

I personally prefer 2/1 game-force, with the following scheme:

1♠-2♣-2♥...

2♠ = 3-card support, strong, slammish.
2NT = catch-all.
3♠ = 3-card supp, min 2/1 not interested in slam. Opener bids controls if slambound.
3NT = min 2/1, very NT-ish hand, soft values in side suits.
4♠ = picture bid.

[david_c]

I'm surprised that people want so many different ways to raise partner starting with a 2/1. I grew up playing Acol, where if you wanted to set spades after 1♠,2♣:2♥ your choices were:
(i) punt a game or slam;
(ii) bid fourth suit and hope that your next bid will be unambiguous.

Of course I realise this is a rubbish method (and not particularly relevant to a discussion about 2/1GF), but it must be possible to go too far in the other direction. Don't you think that having both 2♠ and 3♠ available to show 3-card support is a little excessive? You can't expect to be dealt spade support on every hand ...

If forced to play 2/1, I'll go for
4♠ = something that never comes up.
3♠ = good support, and promising a little more than a minimum GF.
2♠ = Typically only 2 spades, but maybe 3 if not good enough for 3♠.

[inquiry]

Winstonm, on Aug 22 2005, 09:41 AM, said:

Ben:

Yours is a wonderfully well-conceived treatment - in fact the only hole I see in it is that it seems you must assume a playable trump suit.

I use a similar concept but it is less precise and relies more on partnership judgments.

1S-2D-2H-2S-3D* *We call these "Sniffer" hands - minimum hand types with good
controls and a "filler card" in responder's suit. The concept
being can we find 10 tricks in spades/diamonds, an Ace and
a ruff for twelve on the 28/29 point hands? Now 3S by
responder says: I still have
interest but I'm a little concerned about trumps. 4S-no
interest.
Further cue bid interest with no reason to worry about trumps.

1S-2D-2H-2S-4D* Still sniffing. My diamond holding suggests no losers
opposite a 2 honor suit: AKxxx, AJxxx, KQxxx, etc.
This does not guarantee a club control. Maybe it should.

1S-2D-2H-2S-3S* This replaces "Serious 3N" - it is "Serious Self Raise".

1S-2D-2H-4C* *Solid diamonds and a club singleton - hearts in question.

1S-2D-2H-4D *Solid diamonds with no controls in hearts/clubs

Regardless of method, this is a really good post as it is an area of bidding about which every serious partnership should have disctinct understandings.

Winston

Well, I "assuime" a playable trump suit because responder has enough to force to game with no real values in the other two suits. Thus, he always has decent trump support. That is, three smalll trumps and good first suit is not suitable for this treatment. Since there could easily be another playable spot.

But your treatment is fine too. The idea is to put these bids to good use. It is not so much what your agreement is, as long as it is easily remembered, and you can remove some of the "slam potential" hands from yoiur slamish auctions though the use of these bids.

[inquiry]

david_c, on Aug 22 2005, 11:21 AM, said:

Don't you think that having both 2♠ and 3♠ available to show 3-card support is a little excessive? You can't expect to be dealt spade support on every hand ...

What makes you think I use 2♠ to show three card support. In fact, I use 2♠ to promise only 2♠ and look for more information from partner. I can do the same thing with a forcing 2NT bid, but I use 2♠ when I don't want to play NT from my side of the table. 2♠, like 3♠ and 2NT is GAME force, but 2♠ is the
punt bid here (call it winston's sniffer if you like) exploring the best strain. If it includes good spade support it is the hand others might jump to 4♠ on if they are not playing fit jumps. I save 3♠ for trump establishment, and a hand unsuited for fit jump.

After 2/1 I don't use "fourth suit forcing" for the simple reason we are already in game force situation. So if I want to show my own good suit, I rebid it. If I want to show game force raise of partner, I raiise him. If I bid the 4th suit on the second round, it presumably shows values there and a reason I did not want to rebid NT.