[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-October-23, 02:31, said:

2S, FSF ... it does not really matter, if you play it as GF or not, in the end you will
have to bid 4C next time, unless p discovers a spade stopper.
But even than 3C is a forcing club raise with SI.

You seem to assume that now 2NT by Opener shows a spades stopper (which is how we play too). Does everyone agree with this or does someone prefer 2NT to show 2254 shape?
(Just curiosity, not pertinent to actual board)

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 06:27, said:

You seem to assume that now 2NT by Opener shows a spades stopper (which is how we play too). Does everyone agree with this or does someone prefer 2NT to show 2254 shape?

I would assume, that FSF by responder asks for

#1 3 card support for responders suit
#2 stopper in the unbid suit
#3 add. shape information about openers 2-suited hand
#4 starting a slam investigative auction

Order is a matter of preference

[pescetom]

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Partner has 3 card support. Now?

(As an aside, I struggle to see how a non GF 4SF would work in this situation).

[kgr]

DavidKok, on 2026-October-23, 02:20, said:

2♠ 4SGF, intending to raise clubs after.

Or?:
1♦-1♥
2♣-4♣
SI ♣, inviting to cue

[DavidKok]

kgr, on 2026-October-23, 09:26, said:

Or?:
1♦-1♥
2♣-4♣
SI ♣, inviting to cue

It will take a lot of bidding space to convince partner that their holding is good enough to cooperate. We should bid slowly, so partner can tell us of their shape and (presumed lack of) strength, after which we can make a strong forward-going move.

[jillybean]

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Kickback

im regretting not bidding 4n/1♦

[paulg]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 09:19, said:

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Partner has 3 card support. Now?

(As an aside, I struggle to see how a non GF 4SF would work in this situation).

We have to start with 4♣ and preferably have the arrangement that a big kick under the table means that this sets the suit.

Otherwise it is an auction that has got horribly messy and I doubt that I will obtain the information I need. If partner can bid 4♦ then I can continue the confusion with 4♠, but I am not confident that it will end well.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 09:19, said:

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Partner has 3 card support. Now?

For me 3-card support takes priority over introducing the clubs unless opener has extra's, so partner is showing approximately 15+. Unexpected, but very welcome. It can otherwise be tricky to sort out the trump suit, plus it has many ways to gain.

4♣ now sets trumps.

[pescetom]

 jillybean, on 2026-October-23, 09:42, said:

im regretting not bidding 4n/1♦

You could always have waited for 2♣ and then bid 4♦ as Kickback in clubs (if this is indiscussed after a 1♦ opening then discuss, for me it is still Kickback).

 jillybean, on 2026-October-23, 09:42, said:

(Now 4♠) Kickback

Partner replies 5♦. And now?
Are you sure he will not correct clubs to trumps?

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 09:19, said:

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Partner has 3 card support. Now?

(As an aside, I struggle to see how a non GF 4SF would work in this situation).

Now you bid 4C, this sets clubs, and showes SI. 3H should pinpoint a 5431 distribution with opener.

And it does not matter, that FSF was not GF, ..., the only difference is,
that non GF implies, that you could end up in 2NT (would show a min opener with a spade stopper),
opener would need to bid 3NT, 3C could be passed, if opener wants to force, he needs to bid 3S.

We play 2S as non GF, ..., but a 3 level response turns the auction GF.
The thing is, lots of peoble have no problem, that a GF FSF forces you sometimes to stretch, if
you hold "only" inv. values (hands, that were the main reason FSF got developed in the first place),
sometimes you will force to game.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2026-October-23, 09:52, said:

For me 3-card support takes priority over introducing the clubs unless opener has extra's, so partner is showing approximately 15+. Unexpected, but very welcome. It can otherwise be tricky to sort out the trump suit, plus it has many ways to gain.

In that case partner might not have bid clubs with this hand. As we play, no extras are required to show clubs then the hearts fragment.

DavidKok, on 2026-October-23, 09:52, said:

4♣ now sets trumps.

For me too, even without a kick under the table.

[pescetom]

 P_Marlowe, on 2026-October-23, 10:23, said:

And it does not matter, that FSF was not GF, ..., the only difference is,
that non GF implies, that you could end up in 2NT (would show a min opener with a spade stopper),
opener would need to bid 3NT, 3C could be passed, if opener wants to force, he needs to bid 3S.

We play 2S as non GF, ..., but a 3 level response turns the auction GF.

My doubt was about a 3♥ bid over 2♠. It seems odd that it should create a game force (with a possible minimum 1354 that is willing to stop in 3♥) but also unnatural that 4♣ by Responder should now be forcing.
But if you're basically playing that anything except 2NT or 3♣ is GF, I can see that is playable.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 10:12, said:

You could always have waited for 2♣ and then bid 4♦ as Kickback in clubs (if this is indiscussed after a 1♦ opening then discuss, for me it is still Kickback).


Partner replies 5♦. And now?
Are you sure he will not correct clubs to trumps?

My worry is what will pard do over 4♣. Yes, I should bid my hand and not try control.
I'll join the 4 clubbers.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 10:44, said:

But if you're basically playing that anything except 2NT or 3♣ is GF, I can see that is playable.

Presumably opener then has to conceal the heart fragment to show a minimum?

[paulg]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 09:19, said:

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It's okay for 4♣ to set clubs, but this means you have to do something else with

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Perhaps 3♠ should be a non-specific slam try in hearts, but it's not something I'd like to introduce at the table.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2026-October-23, 11:22, said:

Presumably opener then has to conceal the heart fragment to show a minimum?

Exactly, that was my doubt.

[pescetom]

paulg, on 2026-October-23, 12:08, said:

It's okay for 4♣ to set clubs, but this means you have to do something else with

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Perhaps 3♠ should be a non-specific slam try in hearts, but it's not something I'd like to introduce at the table.

Yes you need to be able to show SI in some way.
I play 3♠ as a non-specific slam try in such situations, but I imagine most pairs would simply lean on the usual 4NT crutch.

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2026-October-23, 10:44, said:

My doubt was about a 3♥ bid over 2♠. It seems odd that it should create a game force (with a possible minimum 1354 that is willing to stop in 3♥) but also unnatural that 4♣ by Responder should now be forcing.
But if you're basically playing that anything except 2NT or 3♣ is GF, I can see that is playable.

I’ve never understood why 4th suit wasn’t gf. I do know that back in the 2970s, when bidding theory as we now know it was in its infancy, some (primarily East Coast US) experts played it as mvitational or better, but these were the same players who disliked new minor forcing and thought that ‘science’ was bad bridge. I haven’t encountered 4SF as less than gf in many years

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-October-23, 11:12, said:

My worry is what will pard do over 4♣. Yes, I should bid my hand and not try control.
I'll join the 4 clubbers.

Partner bids 4♦.
I hope you've accepted to bid 4♥ by now
If so he bids 4♠.

[pescetom]

It gets agreement dependent after 4♣, some would have followed a different path even before.
Here are both hands.

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Curious to know how the auction would have gone in your preferred pair.