[luis]

luke warm, on Jul 28 2005, 11:20 PM, said:

maybe all you who hate 2d are right, but to me the 3d bid was horrible... what's the worst that can happen if you pass 2s? they play it and make it? it might be different if you actually had your bid (imo the stiff spade ace doesn't greatly increase the quality of the hand)

Clap clap, join my boat :-)

[keylime]

<After a rethink at 5am in the morning>

2D overcall was horrid.

The double, absolutely inexcusable and deserves a severe whipping of harsh objects upon the flesh of the mere mortal that thought naively they could defeat 3S nearly one handed. Furthermore, done at imps - that gets not only a buttwhooping it also gets a beatdown from a posse. It merits a public confession of each and every bridge sin the player in question has ever committed with a length period of wearing sackcloth to show remorse.

4D, not that bad - they can't see pard's diamond overcall as being worse than a dog's dinner. At least they tried.

So, West gets all the blame. East, none.

Now, someone PLEASE hand me coffee.

This post has been edited by keylime: 2005-July-29, 05:59

[the hog]

Fluffy, on Jul 29 2005, 08:14 AM, said:

luis, on Jul 28 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

Not me, ,but at least I agree some extra strrenght for the call has a point, 2HCP far from me for that matter, but its closer than many other 2m overcalls I often see.


Some people say 3♦ is not a bad bid, I disagree, any raise that is not a jump should show constructive hand, here its not the case at all, I would say a 4♦ bid is a bit too agressive but coul live with it (note that it will be harder that a direct 4♦ bid will be doubled).

I disagree with with this Fluffy. You have 2NT available here as a constructive raise, so 3D just forces the level up one.

A serious question I would ask the 2D overcallers - "Why are you bidding?". For the lead? Well you may be on lead and do you really want a D lead? It is a very dangerous bid with a relatively poor D holding and would encourage a decent partner to have a go at 3N with a S stop and a D honour. Chances for ganme for the opponents are poor. You are risking a black eye to nothing.

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Jul 29 2005, 07:54 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 29 2005, 08:14 AM, said:

luis, on Jul 28 2005, 03:54 PM, said:

2♦: 7/10 I think it's quite reasonable, lot of people that object this bid will bid it at the table, hard to resist overcalling 2♦ when you have a good hand with diamonds.

Not me, ,but at least I agree some extra strrenght for the call has a point, 2HCP far from me for that matter, but its closer than many other 2m overcalls I often see.


Some people say 3♦ is not a bad bid, I disagree, any raise that is not a jump should show constructive hand, here its not the case at all, I would say a 4♦ bid is a bit too agressive but coul live with it (note that it will be harder that a direct 4♦ bid will be doubled).

I disagree with with this Fluffy. You have 2NT available here as a constructive raise, so 3D just forces the level up one.

A serious question I would ask the 2D overcallers - "Why are you bidding?". For the lead? Well you may be on lead and do you really want a D lead? It is a very dangerous bid with a relatively poor D holding and would encourage a decent partner to have a go at 3N with a S stop and a D honour. Chances for ganme for the opponents are poor. You are risking a black eye to nothing.

Though I understand your point. Your argument is basically wrong. When OPP opens, the aim of our bid is to win a partscore. This is particularly true in MP. The question of bid for lead is pointless.

Why do I overcall 2D? THere are a few good reasons for it.

First, we could have a diamond partscore. If you dont bid it, you lose it. The diamond suit is not horribly bad.

Second, LHO may play 3N and pd will lead your suit. IN particular you dont like a club lead. Even if RHO declares, you can get some information from whether pd raises you or not.

Any competitive bid has its risk. Even one level overcall has its risk. BUt this doesnot mean we should shut up forever.

Should I worry that pd will overbid with a spade stopper and a diamond high card and then pass? No, if pd overbid that is his problem. THere are many ways pd could show a good raise or a bad raise and he should not blast to game simply because I overcall. Overcall often shows only a good suit and nothing else. This hand has its flaw, but the high card strength should compensate it.

[coyot]

flytoox, on Jul 29 2005, 09:42 AM, said:

Though I understand your point. Your argument is basically wrong. When OPP opens, the aim of our bid is to win a partscore. This is particularly true in MP. The question of bid for lead is pointless.

Why do I overcall 2D? THere are a few good reasons for it.

First, we could have a diamond partscore. If you dont bid it, you lose it. The diamond suit is not horribly bad.

Second, LHO may play 3N and pd will lead your suit. IN particular you dont like a club lead. Even if RHO declares, you can get some information from whether pd raises you or not.

Any competitive bid has its risk. Even one level overcall has its risk. BUt this doesnot mean we should shut up forever.

Should I worry that pd will overbid with a spade stopper and a diamond high card and then pass? No, if pd overbid that is his problem. THere are many ways pd could show a good raise or a bad raise and he should not blast to game simply because I overcall. Overcall often shows only a good suit and nothing else. This hand has its flaw, but the high card strength should compensate it.

Let me try to counter your reasons:

1) It is not extremely likely that we would have a good (= makeable) diamond partscore if LHO says 2♠. 3♦ after a trump lead looks like a no-go (3 hearts, 0 spades, likely 4 diamonds... 2 club tricks are not to be expected easily...).

If LHO does NOT say 2♠, our chances to find our makeable partscore are better.

2) Second, you said yourself that you don't overcall for lead purposes, so don't bring that in there .
(BTW, why should your partner lead a club? If your opps end up in 3NT, any sensible partner will try to find your LONG suit - so unless he has more diamonds than clubs, you don't have to fear the club lead. The worst that can happen is that he leads a heart. Of course, if the opponents need hearts to make 3NT, a diamond lead would kill the contract, but how likely is that?)

3) I see the risks of bidding with this hand outweighing the possible gains. Chances that we have a makeable diamond partscore if opps have spade fit are pretty low.

[the hog]

Agree with the above comments. The other argument is that the possessionon Qxx in the opened suit makes the overcall even more dangerous. As to the part score argument, you don't even have a Major, how to you hope to outbid the opponents?

How much more sensible and effective is a 1S overcall of 1C on KJxxx and maybe another K. Overcalling 2D on the posted hand is losing bridge in the long term.

[Antoine Fourrière]

If you must bid, this hand doesn't scream diamonds, but notrump. So 2♦ is much inferior to the debatable, but not outrageous, 1N, and still would be without a spade stopper.
3♦ is correct. The best alternative is a direct 4♦, which would be right if overcaller had shown a six-card suit.
Afterwards, there seems to be a mix-up. Double is understandable only in order to refrain East from bidding on, and 4♦ is understandable only if double shows extra values. (Double is better than 4♦, because 2♦ was way off the mark, while 3♦ was simply the best choice, but East is now sorry he didn't pass or bid 4♦ immediately.)

2♦ 2/10 (Pass 10/10, 1N 8/10, Double 2/10)
3♦ 10/10 (Pass 5/10, 4♦ 7/10)
Double 4/10 (Pass 10/10)
4♦ 3/10 (Pass 10/10)

[hrothgar]

Put me in the camp that strongly dislikes the 2♦ overcall. I'm not fond of 5332 hands to begin with. I'm especially warry about overcalling 5332 hands with ratty suits at the 2 level when Red. Personally, I think that 2♦ is a bad description of my hand.

I also dislike pulling the double to 4♦. As Frances notes, partner's double is penalty oriented. I have 3 card Diamond support (a plus when defending). More significantly, I have the Ace of Spades which will be a nasty surprise for opener if he has Kxx or Qxx in dummy.

The double is a bit rich for my blood. Here, once again, I agree with Frances. Double is clear at MPs however, it has too many ways to go wrong at IMPs.

[Wiste1]

I understand very well why people dont like the 2♦ overcall.
But its still my choise to bid 2♦, and 3♦ is also my style.
Double and 4♦ looks very wrong to me

[Winstonm]

Quote

Winstonm:

Quote

Reopening 2♠ with this garbage is suicide.

No doubt. Seems I didn't make my position clear - this hand is a horrible balance of 2S; however, it is a worse overcall of 1S. The difference is that in the balancing seat both opponents hands are limited and they have established a fit; bidding directly over 1S is bidding into an unlimited hand that has not announced a fit.

I wouldn't bid in either seat. I think this is a clear cut pass the first time and a clear cut pass the second time. If this is a double partscore swing, so be it - the other table hopefully will have the same problem. If the opps happened to have stolen a partscore, the -220 doesn't rate to be a match loser.

Winston

[flytoox]

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

[flytoox]

coyot, on Jul 29 2005, 03:27 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 29 2005, 09:42 AM, said:

Though I understand your point. Your argument is basically wrong. When OPP opens, the aim of our bid is to win a partscore. This is particularly true in MP. The question of bid for lead is pointless.

Why do I overcall 2D? THere are a few good reasons for it.

First, we could have a diamond partscore. If you dont bid it, you lose it. The diamond suit is not horribly bad.

Second, LHO may play 3N and pd will lead your suit. IN particular you dont like a club lead. Even if RHO declares, you can get some information from whether pd raises you or not.

Any competitive bid has its risk. Even one level overcall has its risk. BUt this doesnot mean we should shut up forever.

Should I worry that pd will overbid with a spade stopper and a diamond high card and then pass? No, if pd overbid that is his problem. THere are many ways pd could show a good raise or a bad raise and he should not blast to game simply because I overcall. Overcall often shows only a good suit and nothing else. This hand has its flaw, but the high card strength should compensate it.

Let me try to counter your reasons:

1) It is not extremely likely that we would have a good (= makeable) diamond partscore if LHO says 2♠. 3♦ after a trump lead looks like a no-go (3 hearts, 0 spades, likely 4 diamonds... 2 club tricks are not to be expected easily...).

If LHO does NOT say 2♠, our chances to find our makeable partscore are better.

2) Second, you said yourself that you don't overcall for lead purposes, so don't bring that in there .
(BTW, why should your partner lead a club? If your opps end up in 3NT, any sensible partner will try to find your LONG suit - so unless he has more diamonds than clubs, you don't have to fear the club lead. The worst that can happen is that he leads a heart. Of course, if the opponents need hearts to make 3NT, a diamond lead would kill the contract, but how likely is that?)

3) I see the risks of bidding with this hand outweighing the possible gains. Chances that we have a makeable diamond partscore if opps have spade fit are pretty low.

Did you realize how many assumptions you have made to get yoru conclusion? They must lead trumps, LHO must have one of SAK, we must play 3D and opp will not bid 3S and opps made right decision. 3D will go down two tricks or 3Dx goes down 1 trick. Pd has three trump only. Pd will find your suit if LHO plays in 3N finally.....


Do you think these assumption reasonable? Look at the hand carefully, you will find overcaling 2D is the only way to get you a plus score. Isnot this an enough evidence to support 2D overcall?

[flytoox]

hrothgar, on Jul 30 2005, 03:03 AM, said:

Put me in the camp that strongly dislikes the 2♦ overcall. I'm not fond of 5332 hands to begin with. I'm especially warry about overcalling 5332 hands with ratty suits at the 2 level when Red. Personally, I think that 2♦ is a bad description of my hand.

I also dislike pulling the double to 4♦. As Frances notes, partner's double is penalty oriented. I have 3 card Diamond support (a plus when defending). More significantly, I have the Ace of Spades which will be a nasty surprise for opener if he has Kxx or Qxx in dummy.

The double is a bit rich for my blood. Here, once again, I agree with Frances. Double is clear at MPs however, it has too many ways to go wrong at IMPs.

I agree that pulling pd's dbl to 4D is a fundemental mistake, i.e., violating partnership trust. He made only a simple raise, yet pd dbled 3S. He has a sure defense trick. He really should not pull pd's dbl. However, I think the dbler should realize that overcalling 2D has already given him an edge over those passers. Pushing Opps to 3S is itself a success. THere is no point to dbl whatsoever. This is the reason why I think dbl is worse than the pull.

[mike777]

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 02:39 PM, said:

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

What? The only way? That seems a bit extreme.

Just make a takeout double.

1S=X=2S=X(RESPONSIVE). or
1s=x=3s=p

In any case with 9 spades the opp get to 3s.

[flytoox]

mike777, on Jul 30 2005, 08:26 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 02:39 PM, said:

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

What? The only way? That seems a bit extreme.

Just make a takeout double.

1S=X=2S=X(RESPONSIVE). or
1s=x=3s=p

In any case with 9 spades the opp get to 3s.

Dbl is an option only if you play ELC. I dont think opp will bid 3S if you dont overcall 2D. Responder has a flat 4333 shape he will not bid 3S without interference.

[coyot]

Please stop defending this action on this particular hand. The question is, whether it is a good idea to overcall 2♦ with this hand in genera;, NOT whether the bid at the table yielded a good result.

IMHO in long term the 2♦ overcall is a losing bridge - the hand has HCP but nothing else, no good offensive potential.

[flytoox]

If I say passing with this hand is losing bridge, do you find it convincing? IMHO, making this kind claim is pointless. We argue its plus or minus based on analysis and the statistical evidence. Of coz one hand doesnot prove much. But at least it give you some food for thought, isnot it? If you read my post on this thread, you will notice that nowhere I said 2D is a great bid. What I said is that 2D is NOT that bad as many ppl think here. I think it is a difficult bid.

Whether overcall 2D is a judgement call. In bridge, judgement call is never black or white.

[the hog]

Fly there are many people here, some of whom are very strong players, who think 2D is a poor bid. I think you should look at their arguments.

[hrothgar]

flytoox, on Jul 31 2005, 12:02 AM, said:

Dbl is an option only if you play ELC. I dont think opp will bid 3S if you dont overcall 2D.  Responder has a flat 4333 shape he will not bid 3S without interference.

I don't play ELC and I'm still doubling with this hand... Realistically, given that I hold Diamonds, ELC only applies on a limited number of auctions.

This hand evaluates as roughly 12.6 HCP using the K+R hand evaluator. The hand degrades a bit more based on the Qxx in RHO's suit, so lets call it 12.25 or so... In short, I can very happily pass any simple preference by partner. If partner jumps to 2♥, my solid trump support will come as a welcome surprise.

I can't say that I'm happy to pass partner's 2♣ advance, however, in the long run it seems preferable an odious 2♦ overcall. In particular, it should be noted that 2♣ will often be based on a 5 card suit.

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Jul 30 2005, 11:33 PM, said:

Fly there are many people here, some of whom are very strong players, who think 2D is a poor bid. I think you should look at their arguments.

I know there are many strong players here and there are lots of hidden dragon and crouching tiger around this forum. But this is about logic, not about fame, right?

I do care ppl's opinion and I believe I am quite open minded. However, simily claiming 2D is a poor bid wonot convince me. I donot know any strong players personnally, but I would expect few real strong players will say 2D is a poor bid.