[Winstonm]

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 02:39 PM, said:

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

If anyone is to blame it is North for making a well-judged decision to ignore the almighty LOTT and bid a lowly 2-spades with a known 9-card fit - maybe they weren't playing Bergen raises - still, I've seen oodles of players who thought the North hand worth a limit raise with its A, K, and 4 trumps.


Winston

[mike777]

Winstonm, on Jul 30 2005, 07:38 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 02:39 PM, said:

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

If anyone is to blame it is North for making a well-judged decision to ignore the almighty LOTT and bid a lowly 2-spades with a known 9-card fit - maybe they weren't playing Bergen raises - still, I've seen oodles of players who thought the North hand worth a limit raise with its A, K, and 4 trumps.


Winston

Well if your point is LOTT is not perfect, ok but LOTT says bid 2s on this one not 3.
9 trumps but minus one adjustment for 4333 hand. So you got in trouble if you do ignore LOTT on this one.

btw have no idea why south bids 3s over 3d.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on Jul 30 2005, 08:02 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 30 2005, 07:38 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 02:39 PM, said:

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

If anyone is to blame it is North for making a well-judged decision to ignore the almighty LOTT and bid a lowly 2-spades with a known 9-card fit - maybe they weren't playing Bergen raises - still, I've seen oodles of players who thought the North hand worth a limit raise with its A, K, and 4 trumps.


Winston

Well if your point is LOTT is not perfect, ok but LOTT says bid 2s on this one not 3.
9 trumps but minus one adjustment for 4333 hand. So you got in trouble if you do ignore LOTT on this one.

btw have no idea why south bids 3s over 3d.

Exactly right, Mike. LOTT does say subtract for 4333.

But it seems too many reader's of Cohen never got past the concept of "bidding to the level of your fit" and they ignore shape, secondary honors in opps suits, length, etc. - all the adjustment factors that Cohen wrote so well about is his sequel.

But then even the author himself said that in borderline cases his advice was to bid as imperfect defense would often compensate for the slight stretch. And he also said these adjustments should be made when fairly heavily weighted in one direction. There is certainly a reasonable argument that the North hand, with it's well-placed-on-the-sound-of-it diamond King, could be "pure", which would offset the shape.

And I'm with you - I'm still trying to figure out the reason for South's 3S bid.

Winston

[Winstonm]

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 02:39 PM, said:

To those 2D accuser, I have just one simple question. Did you realized overcalling 2D is the only way to get a plus score? Without 2D, opps will play at 2S. Overcalling 2D and pd's raise pushed Opp to 3S. What is more convincing than the hand itself?

This is inaccurate - South, not West, placed N/S in the minus position. Overcalling 2D only succeeded in reaching a different minus position for E/W - 3D down 1 after the rather easy-to-find lead of a low diamond.

Seems to me W/S would make a good partnership, as they both believe in bidding without much reason, while E/N should get along quite nicely with one aggressive and the other tame.

Winston

[hotShot]

Winstonm, on Jul 31 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

This is inaccurate - South, not West, placed N/S in the minus position.  Overcalling 2D only succeeded in reaching a different minus position for E/W - 3D down 1 after the rather easy-to-find lead of a low diamond. 

Seems to me W/S would make a good partnership, as they both believe in bidding without much reason, while E/N should get along quite nicely with one aggressive and the other tame.   

Winston

There are unforced errors and mistakes made caused by beeing under pressure.

If you like to win by opponents unforced errors only, good luck to you.
You will get positive results if you are good enough, but i don't think it is a winning strategie against strong opps, because they don't make much of those.

Overcalling 2♦ is a winning bid, because:

1) it helps partner with his reopening decisionin 4th seat. He can decide, if we are in a 20-20 hcp situation or if opener hold a 18-21 point hand and passing at low level makes the top.
2) It disturbs opponents bidding.
Assume that N/S play an 2/1 style system, with a focing 1NT.
1♠ - 2♠ => good limit raise

1♠ - 1[NT]
XX - 2♠ => weak limit raise

By bidding west ripped N/S of an easy GF and south will no longer be able to know if 2♠ is a minimum or a maximum bid.
Less information means higher chance to make a mistake.

3) 2♦ is not lead directing,
because if NS play ♠ it's west who is on lead. If North bids NT, partner will smart enough not to finess ♦ for declarer.
So lead directing is a pseude argument here.

So there is nothing wrong with the 2♦ bid. EW forced South to make a decision, and with 3♠ he made the wrong one.

[Winstonm]

hotShot, on Jul 31 2005, 07:33 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Jul 31 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

This is inaccurate - South, not West, placed N/S in the minus position.  Overcalling 2D only succeeded in reaching a different minus position for E/W - 3D down 1 after the rather easy-to-find lead of a low diamond. 

Seems to me W/S would make a good partnership, as they both believe in bidding without much reason, while E/N should get along quite nicely with one aggressive and the other tame.   

Winston

There are unforced errors and mistakes made caused by beeing under pressure.

If you like to win by opponents unforced errors only, good luck to you.
You will get positive results if you are good enough, but i don't think it is a winning strategie against strong opps, because they don't make much of those.

Overcalling 2♦ is a winning bid, because:

1) it helps partner with his reopening decisionin 4th seat. He can decide, if we are in a 20-20 hcp situation or if opener hold a 18-21 point hand and passing at low level makes the top.
2) It disturbs opponents bidding.
Assume that N/S play an 2/1 style system, with a focing 1NT.
1♠ - 2♠ => good limit raise

1♠ - 1[NT]
XX - 2♠ => weak limit raise

By bidding west ripped N/S of an easy GF and south will no longer be able to know if 2♠ is a minimum or a maximum bid.
Less information means higher chance to make a mistake.

3) 2♦ is not lead directing,
because if NS play ♠ it's west who is on lead. If North bids NT, partner will smart enough not to finess ♦ for declarer.
So lead directing is a pseude argument here.

So there is nothing wrong with the 2♦ bid. EW forced South to make a decision, and with 3♠ he made the wrong one.

The original problem stated that the condidtions of contest was IMP scoring. Taking the risk of losing -500 or -800 in order to try and push the opponents only 1 level higher is losing imp tactics. This is matchpoint thinking and a matchpoint argument.

Try taking this back to sympathetic teammates:

"Plus 100. They played 2S in the misfit."
"Minus 800. We tried to push them with a 2 diamond overcall."

You gain 5 imps when you push them and get it right. You risk losing anywhere from 9 to 12 when you get caught speeding. Laying 1:2 odds is poor stategy.

Winston

[Chamaco]

Winstonm, on Jul 31 2005, 06:20 PM, said:

The original problem stated that the condidtions of contest was IMP scoring.  Taking the risk of losing -500 or -800 in order to try and push the opponents only 1 level higher is losing imp tactics.  This is matchpoint thinking and a matchpoint argument. 

Try taking this back to sympathetic teammates:

"Plus 100.  They played 2S in the misfit."
"Minus 800.  We tried to push them with a 2 diamond overcall."

You gain 5 imps when you push them and get it right.  You risk losing anywhere from 9 to 12 when you get caught speeding.  Laying 1:2 odds is poor stategy.

Winston

Ditto.
While I agre that passing such hands is not a winner in the long term, I certainly think that bidding a 2m overcall with 5332 without a good suit and low ODR is certainly a longterm loser at IMPS scoring.

In the given hand, I'd prefer to stretch a slightly offshape t/o ddouble, after all AKQ in herats is almost a 4 card suit, and if pard bids clubs he'll have usually 5.

[han]

Worst bid imo:

a) 2D by west. Followed closely by:
Double, also by west.

Then we get:
c) 4D. It seems that the double is for penalty, so pulling with one certain defensive trick and less offense than promised is bad. If your agreement about the double is not clear then you seriously need to discuss this with partner.

Lastly:
d) 3D. I think I would have bid this too, though I like to have a tad more. However, since I have a singleton in their suit, I cannot count on partner to reopen so I have to go to the 3-level. Given that partner usually has a 6-card suit I'm not too worried about having "only" xxx support.

[coyot]

flytoox, on Jul 30 2005, 06:49 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 30 2005, 11:33 PM, said:

Fly there are many people here, some of whom are very strong players, who think 2D is a poor bid. I think you should look at their arguments.

I know there are many strong players here and there are lots of hidden dragon and crouching tiger around this forum. But this is about logic, not about fame, right?

I do care ppl's opinion and I believe I am quite open minded. However, simily claiming 2D is a poor bid wonot convince me. I donot know any strong players personnally, but I would expect few real strong players will say 2D is a poor bid.

Well, I did not "simply say" it's a poor bid. Actually, if you look a few pages ahead, you will find my exact analysis of "how many tricks would I need from partner to make the contract I promise by the overcall". I can do the math again - I have 3 sure heart winners and 2-3 diamond tricks, nothing more. (3 if partner happens to have 10 of diamonds). So the contract is at least down two at the moment I chose to overcall.

Partner's values in clubs will more likely than not be under menace - so the 2♦ makes only on a few really nice assupmtions (like partner having a diamond honor AND (a spade honor OR working club honor.) - but, it is quite possible that with such a good hand, he would raise to 3♦ (and then go down 1 doubled :-)).

[3DI] from partner was not a good bid as well - but only for the reason that his ace is the spade singleton. This strongly limits the ruffing power of the hand, because even after the spade lead, this will require partner to have entries - and, given the junk overcall, good opps will lead a trump or three and this hand becomes worthless.

With a small spade and Ace of clubs the hand is a little better, but still not good enough to warrant 3♦ unless the overcall promises 6-card (which is not likely these days)

[pclayton]

2D - 7/10 (Not a great suit. I'm not going to wait for the 10 D when I have close to a 1N overcall).

3D - 10/10

Double - 2/10 (Although I'd make the call at MPs to protect my likely +110)

4D - 3/10 (The three trump are a + and the A♠ is a bonus - better to try to take 5 in spades then 10 in diamonds)

[beatrix45]

Good grief! What a zoo this table must have been. Sooo many bad bids.

2♦ - losing overcall vs strong opponents, but here??
3 ♦ - losing bid vs strong opponents, but here??
3 ♠ - bad bid, but it does validate the diamond overcall and raise; how else could you get NS overboard?
dbl - retch! Where are the setting tricks?? Where are 10 tricks on offense coming from?? I mean seriously folks, this is IMPs.
4♦ - why pull with a defense-oriented hand???

Bridge like this is why one should play for money. Otherwise, it will just go on and on and on ad infinitum without adverse consequences.

[inquiry]

2♦ is fine, if not a little "red blooded"

3♦ is, well, very aggressive. How will parnter know to bid on or pass if you raise with this crap like this? I know that LOTT is probably pushing you to bid as the 2♦ overcall tends to be six card suit.

But I think the worse bid is dbl. They have bid 3♠. Your 2♦ bid and your partner's 3♦ bid has pushed them. Pass. This is imps. If you beat them how bad can the score be? But if they make, you are in trouble. I just can't imagine doubling here.

[the hog]

Actually Winston made a good point:
with x xxxx Axx Jxxxx the 3D raise is 100% clear cut imo. I could not possibly conceive passing with this.

With the posted hand I would still raise to 3D, however I concede that it is aggressive;the above hand is far better than the original hand. I assume you would raise with that Ben?

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2005, 06:27 AM, said:

Actually Winston made a good point:
with x xxxx Axx Jxxxx the 3D raise is 100% clear cut imo. I could not possibly conceive passing with this.

This is a completelly different hand, not only because the Ace is no longer stiff, but because it offers partner a great lead he might miss otherwise.

[the hog]

Thats my point Fluffy!

[000002]

WHY 3S-DBL is penalty? anyone explain?
thanks

[inquiry]

3♠ x has to be penalty or at the very least optional. The reason is clear. You have already found your fit (diamonds bid and raised), so double as takeout is no longer needed.

Welcome to the BBO forums.

[000002]

ty host

I count it: 2d overcall indicates under 16hcps frequently,so 12 hcps outside diamond, 3~4 cards honor normally . HOW can penalize opps with pd's rasing simply ?A under 9points raising(6~8).
So , i think that this dbl used an special inviting hand . for example, 1=4=6=2 shape & AKXX+AKXXXX in red suit . 50%, it's a game contract 4h existing.

SRY all,my english is very poor , u had to guess somtimes .

[Chamaco]

000002, on Aug 2 2005, 12:18 PM, said:

I count it: 2d overcall indicates under 16hcps frequently,so 12 hcps outside diamond,  3~4 cards honor normally .  HOW can penalize opps with pd's rasing simply ?A under 9points raising(6~8).
  So , i think that this dbl used an special inviting hand .

I agree.
A 2D overcall is a limited hand (did not double for t/o before), how can the 2nd round double be PURE penalty ?
To penalize at IMPS you must be absolutely sure to set the contract, usually the textbook penalty at IMPS is sure to set by 2 tricks: that means that, even if pard's raise promises 1 trick, you should "see" 5 defensive tricks in your hand.

This will ALMOST NEVER happen with a hand worth a simple overcall (rather than a t/o double at first round): therefore the double show CARDS, a maximum for the overcall.

Now I ask: do you think this hand is maximum for 2-level overcall ?
I do not think so.
To me, a maximum for a 2-level overcall is something like a good 15 or 16 hcp.

So, in my view , the double was foolish, REGARDLESS of whether it was made to show "cards" or to suggest penalty.
It *might* be more acceptable at MP, the cost/benefit ratio would be more justifiable, to protect one's partscore. But at IMPS the risk is just too high.

[FrancesHinden]

Chamaco, on Aug 2 2005, 07:23 AM, said:

I agree.
A 2D overcall is a limited hand (did not double for t/o before), how can the 2nd round double be PURE penalty ?
To penalize at IMPS you must be absolutely sure to set the contract, usually the textbook penalty at IMPS is sure to set by 2 tricks: that means that, even if pard's raise promises 1 trick, you should "see" 5 defensive tricks in your hand.

This will ALMOST NEVER happen with a hand worth a simple overcall (rather than a t/o double at first round): therefore the double show CARDS, a maximum for the overcall.

It is a very old-fashioned style to play that a simple overcall has a maximum of 16 HCP.

While a hand suitable for a penalty double is quite rare at IMPS (less so at matchpoints), there is little need to use the double for other purposes. Partner has defined his hand with the 3D call; if you want to make a game try you can bid.

Most experts would overcall in diamonds holding, say, Q109x x AKQxx AKx rather than double (or bid 1NT, but that's not my style).