[han]

With Roland's hand I would have bid 1H-4C, Gerber.

No, just kidding, I would set trump with 2NT and use keycards next. Perhaps partner's response to 2NT gives me some idea about whether a grand slam might be good.

[whereagles]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 21 2005, 09:58 AM, said:

coyot, on Jul 21 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Not to mention that the whole problem was created by West opening 11HCP aceless 5332 hand...

I was just thinking that.

Nonsense. The bidding can be made very, very simple:

1H 4NT
5D 5H
pass

[coyot]

whereagles, on Jul 22 2005, 09:34 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 21 2005, 09:58 AM, said:

coyot, on Jul 21 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Not to mention that the whole problem was created by West opening 11HCP aceless 5332 hand...

I was just thinking that.

Nonsense. The bidding can be made very, very simple:

1H 4NT
5D 5H
pass

In this particular case, yes. If p. responds with 1 ace, you may still go down on spade finesse - and from your cards, it is quite obvious that you need it unless p has singleton. And a slam that relies on finesse is a bad slam.)

(If p. responds with 2 aces, some gadgets to find spade king could be possibly employed - maybe...).

In general, this fast bidding will work in "easy" cases. It will stop at 5 with 2 aces with opps, but will not allow you to bid a good slam and avoid a bad one.

(And the 11HCP aceless balanced opening stinks )

[whereagles]

coyot, on Jul 22 2005, 02:53 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 22 2005, 09:34 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 21 2005, 09:58 AM, said:

coyot, on Jul 21 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Not to mention that the whole problem was created by West opening 11HCP aceless 5332 hand...

I was just thinking that.

Nonsense. The bidding can be made very, very simple:

1H 4NT
5D 5H
pass

In this particular case, yes. If p. responds with 1 ace, you may still go down on spade finesse - and from your cards, it is quite obvious that you need it unless p has singleton. And a slam that relies on finesse is a bad slam.)

(If p. responds with 2 aces, some gadgets to find spade king could be possibly employed - maybe...).

In general, this fast bidding will work in "easy" cases. It will stop at 5 with 2 aces with opps, but will not allow you to bid a good slam and avoid a bad one.

(And the 11HCP aceless balanced opening stinks )

1. If pard has 0 aces he wouldn't have enough points to open.
2. If pard has only 1 ace the chance he has the spade king is rather high.
3. If pard has 2 aces the slam is 75%: if pard has the spade king, it makes. If not, maybe the finesse works. Besides, a 50% slam is a GOOD slam.
4. If pard has 3 aces there are indeed gadgets to look for the spade king.

So, I think 1H-4NT is a perfectly sustainable, reasonable and uncomplicated course of action

[coyot]

whereagles, on Jul 22 2005, 10:43 AM, said:

1. If pard has 0 aces he wouldn't have enough points to open.
2. If pard has only 1 ace the chance he has the spade king is rather high.
3. If pard has 2 aces the slam is 75%: if pard has the spade king, it makes. If not, maybe the finesse works. Besides, a 50% slam is a GOOD slam.
4. If pard has 3 aces there are indeed gadgets to look for the spade king.

So, I think 1H-4NT is a perfectly sustainable, reasonable and uncomplicated course of action

Oh, a slight misunderstanding in the bidding... I play 14/30 :-) and I wrongly took the 4NT for regular BW then

If he has 0 keycards, he still can have spade K, KQJ in one minor and QJ in other minor and Jack of hearts - that's 13 HCP and the opener above was 11 HCP

If he has 1 keycard, 5H is reasonably safe

If he has 2 keycards, you still have a likely spade loser along with one ace. If you bid slow, you will be able to find his shape (spade singleton would then make this a good slam)

Quote:
Hugh Kelsey in his excellent book Slam Bidding defined successful slam when the number of good slams bid by a partnership exceeds the combined total of good slams missed and bad slams bid. What is a good slam? Well any slam offering better than a 50-50 chance of success is a good slam, and should be bid.

Now, better than 50:50 is good. 50:50 is borderline.

IMP, NonVul: gain of 500 (980 vs 480) against the loss of 500 breaks even
IMP, Vul: gain of 750 (1430 vs 680) against the loss of 750 breaks even.

Of course, a lot depends on event type - who is at the other table in teams, who is in the field.

[Double !]

This thread reminds me of a bridge cartoon that I saw eons ago. There is an interesting theme in it.

The cartoon shows two elderly people (women, in this case) sitting at a table. One says to the other, "Now, remember Mabel, 4NT is always Blackwood!")
Most players would scorn at such a comment. Obviously, for most partnerships, such a statement isn't true, it's certainly not an advanced or expert method, and I am not at all suggesting such an agreement. But there was some method to their madness, so to speak. Maybe these two fictitious players might need (or have had) another way to ask the NT bidder if min/max, but the two likely never had any further misunderstandings about the meaning of 4NT. Just a little food for thought.

[keylime]

Gerber, the baby food product? Ick. I don't like carrots and peas STILL.

I use 1M-4NT as straight blackwood, aces only please (not keycard).

[han]

Double !, on Jul 22 2005, 04:17 PM, said:

This thread reminds me of a bridge cartoon that I saw eons ago. There is an interesting theme in it.

The cartoon shows two elderly people (women, in this case) sitting at a table. One says to the other, "Now, remember Mabel, 4NT is always Blackwood!")
Most players would scorn at such a comment. Obviously, for most partnerships, such a statement isn't true, it's certainly not an advanced or expert method, and I am not at all suggesting such an agreement. But there was some method to their madness, so to speak. Maybe these two fictitious players might need (or have had) another way to ask the NT bidder if min/max, but the two likely never had any further misunderstandings about the meaning of 4NT. Just a little food for thought.

Good comment Double!

This was also my intention by mentioning the situations where I like to play Gerber (although I believe Gerben if he says that I shouldn't call it Gerber, but hey, I still call 1430 RKC "blackwood"!). As long as you have clear agreements about when you play it as what, it can't be that bad.

It's too bad that those expert bridge players that say "amen", "best rules ever", etc. can't come up with more convincing arguments to show why one should not play Gerber. I find the example of the pair that stops in 4NT because they don't know what they are doing almost insulting, what does this have to do with the discussion? Are you suggesting that pairs that play Gerber in some auctions have no idea what their agreements are?

[mike777]

Hannie, on Jul 20 2005, 04:47 PM, said:

Gerben, I like to play the following with my regular partners, I wonder if you can explain to me why this is so bad:

1NT-2D-2H-4C: Gerber (1430 RKC of course)
1NT-2H-2S-4C: Gerber (same)
1NT-2C-2H/S - 4C: Gerber (again 1430 in the bid major)

Over 1NT-2D-2H, we use 3S as an unspecified autospliter (3NT asks), 4D as serious slam try without shortness (a-la last train), 4H shows mild slam interest, and 4NT is quant.

Over 1NT-2H-2S and 1NT-2C-2M we use similar methods.

Please explain why I shouldn't use Gerber here?

prefer kickback so:
1nt=2d
2h=4nt=quant.

1nt=2d
2h=4c=splinter



1nt=4d
4h=4s=ace ask

This method raises great point with Hannie method.
1) We do not play autosplinter so why start now
2) We do not play last train so why start now. Btw I love the MONKEES and have all their stuff.
3) We do play splinters
4) We do play kickback

On the other hand if you play both on many other hands....
Main point is if do not play that fancy stuff on other hand types, do not start now.

[vbcastor]

I would like to know what kind of hand you use quantative nt on when pard opens something other than 1n. I don't have any money and can't buy any bridge books so if I can't find out here, can someone give me an internet site to go look at. the sites I have bookmarked now, don't refer to quantative bids. Thanks in advance.
Vicki

[helene_t]

vbcastor, on Jul 26 2005, 02:47 AM, said:

I would like to know what kind of hand you use quantative nt on when pard opens something other than 1n. I don't have any money and can't buy any bridge books so if I can't find out here, can someone give me an internet site to go look at. the sites I have bookmarked now, don't refer to quantative bids. Thanks in advance.
Vicki

You probably won't respond with a quantitative 4NT to an opeing in a suit. Quantis usually apply after partner has bid notrumps (see my first post).

For example, in
1♣-1♦
2NT-4NT

East says "if you are maximal, we have enough for slam". That's 33 HCPs (with a 5-card diamonds a little less will do). West promises 18-19. So here, East has 14 HCPs. Typically a 3343-shape. (A four-card hearts or spades is possible if you play fourcards-up-the-line).

[coyot]

vbcastor, on Jul 25 2005, 07:47 PM, said:

I would like to know what kind of hand you use quantative nt on when pard opens something other than 1n. I don't have any money and can't buy any bridge books so if I can't find out here, can someone give me an internet site to go look at. the sites I have bookmarked now, don't refer to quantative bids. Thanks in advance.
Vicki

Yep... Imagine any 1x-1y-1NT(2NT) auctions.

i.e. when you get a powerhouse with 3-5-3-2 shape and partner opens 1♣, you bid 1♥ and he rebids 1NT. Now you know that you most likely do NOT have a fit, but imagine that you hold something like:
Ax-AKQx-KJx-QJ..

You simply can't bid Blackwood/Gerber because there is the (albeit small) possibility that opps have two top clubs - so you need to find out if partner likes his hand or not.

You will most likely have gadgets to find out heart support with partner, but if he shows doubleton, 4NT will be quantitative.
(1♣-1♥-1NT-2♦GF-2NT-4NT)

[Fluffy]

there are 4 possible meanings of 4NT:

-Quantitative
-Sing off
-6 key card blackwood
-5 key card blackwood

how to identify the 4 of them is not always easy.

Quantitative: when 4NT is bid after a natural 4NT bid from partner without opponent's interfering. Also after 1NT-2♣-2x-4NT but that is just an exception.

-Sing off: when partner is trying to play slam on a minor we haven't raised, the bidding is at 4♣ or 4♦ and we bid 4NT, it is a sing off to play there.

-6 key card blackwood: when we have raised 2 suits literarilly, 4NT is a 6 key card blackwood.

-5 key card blackwood: the rest.

[helene_t]

There are also the "unusual" meanings of 4NT, typically a 2-suiter:
(1♠)-pass-(4♠)-4NT* two fivecards (or longer)
(1♥)-pass-(4♥)-4NT* minors

1♣-(4♠)-pass-(pass)
4NT* (Clubs plus a red suit, maybe a three-suiter depending on the agreements about dbl)

2♣*-(dbl)-4♣-(dbl) Precision
4NT** Extra shape and please lead a diamond

[FrancesHinden]

If you want to start on competitive auctions, there are lots more meanings of 4NT.
For example,

(1S) 2C (4S) 4NT = good 5C bid