[coyot]

whereagles, on Jul 14 2005, 08:25 PM, said:

Did anyone consider pard's most likely hand is a 55 minors with 6-8 points? Do you really want to shoot at 3H or 4H opposite that? I think 2H is fine. If pard bids 3m, you may even consider PASS.

I don't need to shoot 3 or 4♥ because my hand is limited by 17HCP - and if I'm going to miss a game agains K10x♥ and a minor ace, I'll be happy that I didn't go down a few agains KJ KJ in minors

If partner bids 3m over 2♥ I will bid 3♠ to show a good 6card. (Which should both cause partner to evaluate minor Aces well and show that I am not afraid to play against singleton spade....

[MickyB]

whereagles, on Jul 15 2005, 08:51 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 15 2005, 01:37 AM, said:

"I think 2H is fine."

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

Scoreup +170, -620.

Maybe you pass 2H on that. I know better to bid 2S.

Well I know even better to pass

Do you really think the good games you reach will make up for the part-scores you go down in? Plus sometimes you will reach a bad game after this false preference, particularly if partner plays you to have a true false preference

Having said that, I've seen players I respect advocate this sort of action before...

[flytoox]

2H is my choice. I dont look for perfect dummy. Anyone here who dare say they never miss a game or slam in life?

[FrancesHinden]

I would bid 2H.
I am quite happy not being in game opposite K10x in hearts and a minor suit ace.

Although it might make, the odds on game change when we're going a lot off if we're wrong. If hearts aren't 3-2 (c. 34%) with the queen onside it could be very painful on the lead of the other minor. And if someone is looking at AQxx in hearts and a load of good minor suit cards they might even find a double.

Similarly, you also have to compare -300 opposite a grossly unsuitable hand with the partial in the other room.

Certainly, if I play a limited opening style or some method of showing a load of major suit cards without many HCP then I'll do so, but otherwise I'm happy overall if I only bid game in hearts opposite 4-card support. I'll pay out to AKx.

I think 3NT is a more likely game than 4H, and I appreciate I could miss a perfect nine-tricker by bidding only 2H. However, we are quite light in HCP and partner hasn't shown very many (depends on our methods how strong 1NT could be). The opponents haven't bid a minor, so partner is quite likely to be long in the minors.

[bearmum]

2♥ for me ( P could have a weak minor suit hand ) and I don't consider my hand strong enough for what (to me at least ) is a forcing 3♥

[the hog]

whereagles, on Jul 15 2005, 05:51 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 15 2005, 01:37 AM, said:

"I think 2H is fine."

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

Scoreup +170, -620.

Maybe you pass 2H on that. I know better to bid 2S.

That comment is so silly it doesn't even deserve a response.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Jul 15 2005, 01:30 PM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 15 2005, 05:51 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 15 2005, 01:37 AM, said:

"I think 2H is fine."

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

Scoreup +170, -620.

Maybe you pass 2H on that. I know better to bid 2S.

That comment is so silly it doesn't even deserve a response.

Then why did you reply?

[awm]

The_Hog, on Jul 14 2005, 08:37 PM, said:

"I think 2H is fine."

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

Scoreup +170, -620.

Well let's look at this hand. Club lead and continuation, ruffed in hand. Heart to ten, losing to the ace. Another club is ruffed. Heart to the king, RHO showing out. Oops, not making.

In fact most 4-1 breaks seem to set this contract. But hey, that's unlucky, we should bid it right? Indeed it appears to make around 2/3 of the time. But won't 3♥ also get us to game opposite:

x Qxx Kxxxx Qxxx

xx Ax Kxxxx xxxx

x xx KJxxx QJxxx

If we take as a given that partner has less than ten points, less than four hearts, and less than three spades, I think the odds of game are rather poor. Even in the hand you gave, with essentially no wastage, game was odds-on but not cold.

[inquiry]

mikeh, on Jul 14 2005, 07:54 PM, said:

using 3♥ as 6-5 non-forcing seems somewhat limiting It will not arise often, and in the interim, you will not be able to handle (at least, not well) hands that the rest of us would bid 3♥, forcing. However, 3♥ non-forcing, 5-5 or better is okay playing a big ♣ method: maybe that is what you do in ftf bridge?

Actually it is impossible to play a leap here to 3M as non-forcing 6-5 or 5-5 quite freely in a non-big club system. The system I like makes this very playable. While it is not a big club system, it does has a limited opening bid of one a suit. This reminds me of the old ROMEX with the dynamic 1NT, except my 1NT is real (I like 14-16). But the 1C/1D/1H/1S opening bids are all limited because the strong hands are removed and handled differently.

• Strong balanced hands open 2NT (20=bad 22), 2D (mulit- 22-24), 2C (25+)
  
• Strong one suiters are removed via, 2D (mulit with acol 2 in either minor), 2C (acol 2 in either major or any one suiter true GF)
  
• Strong three suiters are removed through a conventional follow up to 2C opening bids (strong is as weak as 16 hcp on many hands)
  
• Strong 2 suiters are opened with MishoVnBg's MisIry transfer bids at the three level

In addition, this system adopts Riton 2♣ (well horribly modfified, sorry Henri') with all strong opening hands unsuited for jump to new suit. This is almost identical to what Hannie described, except my lower limit is 15 hcp. This allows all the temporizing hands to start 2C, leaving jumps for real two suiters.

But since the opening is by definition limited, opener can not force responder to bid again with a jump in a new suit nor a 2C rebid. Responder can pass both!!! To pass 2C, he knows 1) opener does not have 6-5 or 5-5 hand or he would have jumped. Opener does not have monster first suit (open 2C or jump to 3 of suit), so a responder with just clubs and a weak hand can choose to pass. I must say this is very rare indeed, but it is entirely possible (part of the changes I made to the excellent riton 2C). Likewise, if opener jumps in a new suit he is showing 5 losers or possibly a "four loser" hand without many controls. Responder is free to pass this as well, of course it is highly ENCOURAGING.

I have posted details on my current methods on the web at http://inquiry2over1.blogspot.com in a chapter format. None of them are very long, but one can check the details of any one area as they wish. If you look at any of it and find any broken links, let me know.

[Winstonm]

This certainly is a good example of one of the benefits from a system that limits opening bids - you can jump around with shape without overstating your HCP; however, for many of us stuck with SAYC or 2/1, a jump to 3H will too often get a 3N response from partner and then we end up too high.

Therefore, we are pretty much stuck with a 2H rebid, hoping partner will have enough to make some other call.

Winston

[the hog]

awm, on Jul 16 2005, 01:41 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 14 2005, 08:37 PM, said:

"I think 2H is fine."

x KTx Axxxx xxxx

Scoreup +170, -620.

Well let's look at this hand. Club lead and continuation, ruffed in hand. Heart to ten, losing to the ace. Another club is ruffed. Heart to the king, RHO showing out. Oops, not making.

In fact most 4-1 breaks seem to set this contract. But hey, that's unlucky, we should bid it right? Indeed it appears to make around 2/3 of the time. But won't 3♥ also get us to game opposite:

x Qxx Kxxxx Qxxx

xx Ax Kxxxx xxxx

x xx KJxxx QJxxx

If we take as a given that partner has less than ten points, less than four hearts, and less than three spades, I think the odds of game are rather poor. Even in the hand you gave, with essentially no wastage, game was odds-on but not cold.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think you are forgetting the form of scoring.

I don't think you would get to game with ALL of the examples you posted, certainly not your last one and maybe not the penultimate one.

[beatrix45]

Most of the time partner will have less than 11 HCP. I have 13 HCP. At IMPs I want a plus score. I am going to trash an off percentage but potential heart game by bidding 2♠. No apologies. Bridge is a game of percentages. I have been wrong before once or twice.

[helene_t]

What about 4♠? If we can't figure out how to convey useful information to partner, then at least don't tell the opps anything either.

[awm]

The_Hog, on Jul 15 2005, 06:42 PM, said:

I don't think you would get to game with ALL of the examples you posted, certainly not your last one and maybe not the penultimate one.

Isn't 3♥ a game force? Hard to stay out of game then...

Of course, this whole discussion is moot if your bids mean something different. With one partner, my rebid would be 3♥, which shows 6+♠, 5+♥, and a five loser hand with approximately 11-14 high card points. Yes, that bid really IS part of our system.

But my assumption was that you're playing something like BBO Advanced here, and I'm pretty sure that in those methods (or most 2/1 and standard methods) 3♥ is game force.

[inquiry]

awm, on Jul 16 2005, 05:01 AM, said:

But my assumption was that you're playing something like BBO Advanced here, and I'm pretty sure that in those methods (or most 2/1 and standard methods) 3♥ is game force.

As a general rule, bidding questions to be restricted to 2/1, or bbo advanced should be asked the the SAYC and 2/1 Discussion Forum. My assumption has always been if it is asked in this forum (advanced and expert-class), by definition the request is for any type of treatment.

Thus the people with "specialized" bids should be allowed to discuss them. For instance, if your 3H shows this exact hand and few hcp, how do you show the true game force major two suiter? Discussions like this interest many, and those only interested in standard 2/1 GF can skip over the specialized stuff here, or ask questions only in the appropriate forum.

[Free]

3♥, I have only 5 losers and very nice distribution. Only the ♥ quality is a little poor, but what the heck.

[MickyB]

AKQJxx J8xxx Q x

When I was given this hand, my instinct was to rebid 2♥. I've now realised that I have no idea what to bid over a 2♠ rebid from partner, so I may have to reconsider It has been suggested to me that 4♥ is a better bid than 3♥ because it is weaker than 3♥ rebidding 4♥, but opposite 2-3 in the majors we will land up in hearts when spades looks more promising.

This hand occured in the Spring Fours, and was a source of contention between a friend and his partner when 4♥ went one off. FWIW, Zia said that the choice between 2♥ and 3♥ is a matter of style!

[hrothgar]

I'm just happy that The Hog and Free chose the same bid that I did...
Better to have agreement with your partners than the majority

[whereagles]

MickyB, on Jul 16 2005, 11:38 PM, said:

AKQJxx J8xxx Q x

When I was given this hand, my instinct was to rebid 2♥. I've now realised that I have no idea what to bid over a 2♠ rebid from partner

Now, that's easy. You make one final try in 3S.

1S 1/2x
2H 2S
3S

[Double !]

why rebid 3S instead of 3H? (bid 3S and P will read you for 15-17 with 6-4 in majors, or so I thought.)