[whereagles]

Well hoggie, I also dunno why I bother.. lol. With

Axx..........Qx
Axx..........Txx
AKJxxxx....void
void..........ATxxxxxx

5♣ probably doesn't make, yes. But that's not nearly the worst hand pard can have. Give him something like

Axx..........Qx
Axx..........Txx
AKJxxx.....void
x..............ATxxxxxx

and it's a decent game.. 2-2 club break with some extra chances if the diamond queen is third and diam/spade squeeze. Certainly I'd like to be in it.

In any case how are you planning to catch up after having bid 1♦-1NT? By shooting 5♣ the next round? And what if pard, who could very well be holding a balanced 12-14, actually passes 1NT and a cold game is missed?

[Fluffy]

1NT, could bid 1♥ some day.

[mikestar]

mike777, on Jul 12 2005, 06:25 AM, said:

whereagles, on Jul 12 2005, 12:55 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 12 2005, 01:57 AM, said:

Quote Whereagles:
Pard probably has a bunch of diams. I'm starting with 2♣. Over the expected 2D rebid, I'll probably try 3♣

And what pray tell do you do over a 3D rebid or a reverse by opener when you are now in a GF situation as you have shown 10+ points?

Who cares about points on a 6-loser hand? I guess next you're going to say the hand is "weak"...?

have no idea but please note LTC only works when there is a fit...not on an unknown hand...but most if not all count ltc on nonfit hands.,,Repeat ...most if not all count ltc on nonfit auctions.

When you have an 8-card suit, you have a fit opposite a void.

[mikestar]

I evaluate this as an 8 loser hand, adjusting the LTC as if I have a douleton in partner's suit--this allows for wastage in the short suit. This puts our partnership at the 9 trick level and I curse being unable to bid 3♣ invitational.

Perhaps 1NT is the best of a bad lot, but I have some sympathy for 5♣ direct, it may make if partner is weak in diamonds or has some extras, or may be a good save if partner has a minimum opening. It also shows the hand type: lots of playing strength, poor high cards.

Swap the red suits in both hands and 1NT forcing over 1♥ is fine.

[inquiry]

2♣, then 3♣, and if necessary, 4♣. Life isn't perfect. I don't mind bidding three card suits, but Ten high? Sadly for me, 3♣ immediatley shows diamond support. Also, 4♣ doesn't show clubs for me either.. so it is go slow. If partner shows a club fit with 2♠ or 3♣ raise, I might actually get excited about this hand (especially after 2♠.... (I use artificial sequence after 1D-2C, based on Kokish method). But I suspect I will end up in 4♣

[pigpenz]

wow didnt know this question would get such a response considering the overwhelming response is to bid one notrump.

Actually:
found in an old Five Card Majors book by Max Hardy, it was called the hasty heart. Sometimes you have a to make a bid that doesnt fit into the system and it was called the hasy heart...he was referring to hands like
kxx
q98
qxx
axxx

but is was referring more to a hand that was too good for one notrump but not good enough for 2nt

1d 1h
2h 2nt showed this type of hand and was alertable as not being a four card heart suit

[coyot]

pigpenz, on Jul 12 2005, 11:11 AM, said:

wow didnt know this question would get such a response considering the overwhelming response is to bid one notrump.

I'm even more suprised that noone here fears the opener with a good and long but not 100% solid diamonds to end up in some disaster slam when expecting at least a doubleton from the responder

[awm]

Systemically 1NT doesn't show a balanced hand. It would be the normal call on something like:

Kxx
Qxx
x
Kxxxxx

With the hand given, I would like to show an invite in clubs. Yes, I know that such a sequence would more typically show something like:

Kxx
xx
x
AQxxxxx

Surely no one bids 1NT on the above hand, which is probably a favorite for game opposite pretty much any opener with 3+ clubs. Any reasonable system has a way to invite with the above; I prefer to use a direct 3♣ to show this hand, but it seems in our methods we show this hand via 2♣ followed by 3♣.

I think the main question here is really evaluating the strengh of the hand. Eight card suits are very powerful, and holding the ace means you could well take seven tricks in the suit opposite two small. Axxxxxxx may be a better suit than AQxxxxx for many purposes. By showing an invite we are likely to get to game when partner has a marginal fit for clubs and good stoppers or controls. We are also likely to avoid playing the hand in 1NT. Yes, you can get some bad results if partner blasts to the stratosphere with a good hand and short clubs, but hopefully partner is sane. The example hand given of:

Axx
Axx
AKJxxxx
-

doesn't play particularly well opposite a "real" club invite either. I should hope that partner doesn't take 2♣ as game forcing, since evidently it's not in our methods.

[Double !]

pclayton, on Jul 11 2005, 10:28 PM, said:

I really don't like this system.

Either play 1D - 2C as almost gf or play 1D - 3C as inv..

I'm bidding 1H praying that I can make a Walsh jump of 3C over 1S or 1N. I hate 1N with a 2308 shape but I dislike 2C even more.

Maybe the best call over 1D playing these methods is a direct 5C.

I do not like pure 100% 2/1 GF, either.
I prefer 2/1 GF except for suit rebid. (we also play 2-way jump-shifts: a J-S is either strong, or it is a fit bid. P bids next step to ask which it is. If not 2-way, this bidding dinosaur strongly prefers strong J-Ss. As i have said in the past, there are just certain hands that you need to get off your chest early and then take your time.)

This hand is just another example of some structural problems inherent in strong NT systems.