[haver]

Sp 8,6,5,4
H K,9,2
D 4,2
Cl Q,8,4,3

Third seat, vul. against not. 1Cl - pass - ur turn

[bglover]

2 choices... pass or 3c (weak). Do NOT bid 1s here. If partner has the moose he needs to make 4S the bidding is not gonna end. Your hand is generally worthless unless partner has a moose so either use up lots of bidding room with 3c (wish I had a 5th one tho) or pass... Personally, I probably pass then hope p can reenter the bidding... then I have been forced to show my 4 card spade suit.

[haver]

Sry - dia and clubs are switched:

Sp 8,6,5,4
H K,9,2
D Q,8,4,3
Cl 4,2

3. seat vuln. 1Cl - pass - ur turn

Now u cant bid clubs - so what

[pbleighton]

"Now u cant bid clubs - so what "

So pass. What else? You need a reason to bid with 5 hcp, and you don't have one.

[mishovnbg]

AKxx
Ax
x
AKxxxx

or

AKQx
QJx
KJx
Axx

or

....

Will you open obove hands with 1CL? If answer is "YES", will you still agree with pass?
Misho

[pbleighton]

"AKxx
Ax
x
AKxxxx

or

AKQx
QJx
KJx
Axx

or

....

Will you open obove hands with 1CL? If answer is "YES", will you still agree with pass?
Misho"

Yes, because I will open Kx-Qxx-Jxx-KQ10xx 1CL - far more frequently, at least with the cards I am dealt ;D

[bglover]

In an odd sort of way, Misho's post shows why pass is correct, altho he wasn't trying to do so I don't think.

Decisions in bidding are based on what is partner most likely to have, and decisions on close hands should not be based on catering to ethereal hands that "might" produce a game. Yet, many players (even good players) make this mistake constantly.

If the hand partner is MOST likely to have is a straightforward 13 hcp then pass is clearly correct. The given hand has little value for either offense or defense and you do not want to encourage partner to compete in some way. If partner has the moose given in Misho's example, then the only way you are going to lose out is if he opens 1x and it goes ppp. Could it happen? Sure, but it hardly ever does...

People who subscribe to Misho's thinking are going to get into a lot of contracts that are at least 1 level too high (partner will compete too much later if you choose to enter the auction now) and are looking at penaltiy doubles.

If you pass now and bid later partner won't get too entusiastic on borderline hands.... Sure, you miss game the 2 times in a 1000 its correct to bid but so what? Think of all the penalty doubles you avoid by passing now and not misleading partner.

[mishovnbg]

Thanks for lesson Joe, but i prefer to folllow advice of one of my favorite players and writers Micke Lawrence: "Bridge is bidders game" .
If you like friends I can explain why you need to bid something with such hands, even with worse, if you play SAYC.
Misho

[bglover]

I have read quite a few of Mr. Lawrence's books... maybe more than you have... but not the one you refer to, so I will not comment on that book.

However, I seriously doubt that anyone would advocating responding on that bad hand in a natural system. If you can show me a specific example of a hand of that quality or worse that Mr. Lawrence uses and says this hand must bid, I would like to see it.

I seriously doubt if you can find such a hand in any example that doesn't start with a demand bid of 2C.

The dynamic changes somewhat if partner opens 1d instead of 1C...although bidding on that garbage is still unappealing, the loss of the perceived club fit makes bidding 1S almost necessary (but I would not fault a partner who opted to pass)

[mishovnbg]

Hi Joe!
I quoted from "Evaluation of hands". If you still not read it - do it! Hard for studing, but great for improve counting.
You for sure have much more books then me - i prefer to read and study them, instead of collecting them .
Playing natural system with only one strong opening 2CL (SAYC), you must open 1 in suit even with better hands, than my examples. Reason is 3 suited (4441) and 5+minor-4 major hands leave too few space to achieve good contract after 3 in minor rebid after negative response and must be open with 2CL only with GF hands in practice.
About example of responding to 1CL opening hand - 1DI response is fairly save and can avoid bad contract with 18-19hcp bal opener with 4 or even 3 cards in CL suit. You can pass easy any rebid and it will be good contract. I afraid only of 1NT rebid, but it will be rare - only with 3334/2335 hand. If opps passed all time I expect p to have max and contract will be not so bad, because they have own 1/2NT contract and even down 1 will be good for us. If opps dbl my 1DI respose my p no need to bid with such hand and i dont expect opp to leave 1 in suit with dbl often.
I will not post more here, because I dont feel friendly comments from you Joe, sorry if i offend you :.
Misho

[bglover]

Sorry, was not my intention to offend you..

My point only was that in the example where partner opens 1C, it is better not to bid that hand as it has almost no positive value for offense or defense. You are safe playing in clubs and, absent partner bidding again (likely he will have another chance here), then he can force you to bid this bad hand with a double or some other action.

Playing partner for "magic" cards (which is the examples you gave) and using that as a reason to justify manufacturing a bid is something I do not subscribe to. Once partner has shown strength (through a reopening double or some other such action) you can now better take action.. Indeed, if partner merely makes a 2c bid after opps take some action, I would not hesitate to bid 3 to let him know I have "something useful" for him. But, in my opinion, this hand needs more forward action from partner before its worthy of a bid.

You, of course, are free to disagree (and you have). That I would bid it differently than you is one of style, but then I am conservative in my actions with weak hands... I don't like risking penalty doubles by encouraging partner to bid when I hold dubious values. Notice that I said that if I had a fifth club I would gladly bid 3C tho,,, this hand is flawed for that preempt (due to only 4 low clubs), but that is my style.

[Codo]

Hi haver,

to return to your question:
I would cleary bid 1 Spade after 1 Diamond from pd.

But this is one of the great diesennses in bridge. Is it right to bid here or not. So Joes view has a lot of supporters and some merrits.
No need to repeat his valid arguments.

Otoh, you win in the following scenarios:

1. Pd has the very strong hand. This is not so unlikely as it may seems to be: RHO passes (maybe because of his own weak hand), which makes the two remaining hands stronger and stronger.

2. Your lho has a very strong hand: If you bid, you makes it much more difficult for them to compete.

3. The most likely scenario:
Both parties have about half of the deck:
So, your pd has about 14-15 HCPs. He won`t jump even with a fit, but he will raise your spades to 2 Spade and you have a big chance to play there, or he will bid 1 NT. And this is at least non-vul. another clear winner:
If the parties are on their way to make 6 or 7 tricks, it is always nice to bid NT from your side: If you make 6 tricks, you loose 90 against their NT but just 50 if you play and with 7 tricks you win just 50 against their 1 NT, but 90 if you make it. (besides the gifted tricks in defence, which are much more then the tricks you gain from the advantage of leading...)

4. Maybe your lho has a good hand with diamonds. He will pass and collect 100 or 150, while you are cold for 2 Spade.
(Besides, during one European Championship, a German team was defeated due to the following hand and bidding:

1 minor-pass-??

with xxxx,xxxxx,x,xxx. (Or maybe a jack somewhere)
The german table passed, for -150, the other table bid 1 heart was raised to four and made 11 easy tricks.

So, there is just one scenario, where I would expect to have a disadvantage: Pd has some 16+-18 HCP ands and jump to 3 Spade or 2NT. Then I maybe will get too high.

Kind Regards

Roland

P.S.: After 1 Club, 1 Spade is even safer to bid. YOu can always return to 2 or 3 Club later...)

[Free]

Quote

AKxx
Ax
x
AKxxxx

or

AKQx
QJx
KJx
Axx

or

....

Will you open obove hands with 1CL? If answer is "YES", will you still agree with pass?
Misho

In my system:
hand 1: no, I'll open 2D (this 6C-4S GF hand is bid through the 2D-multi opening)
hand 2: yes, that's a perfect 1C opening (natural or balanced 18-20 HCP or balanced 25+ HCP) and no, then I don't accept a pass.

But in a natural system I'd pass. I have spades so if opponents intervene I can still show my suit (or partner can show them and I can raise). If opponents bid, partner will bid too with such strong hands...