[inquiry]

I think the double of 3♣ is fine. In fact, that is what I would have bid. The question is how do you bid WITHOUT a KNOWN FIT?

Until a fit has been found (or totally ruled out), doubles are for takeout. Partner bid 2♠, so he hasn't shown support for diamonds. If I had spade support I would raise. So, we have not found a fit.

Over 3♣, I can pass, but since I am short in clubs, and since I am long in the red suits I will double. This says, no spade fit (i would not double here with spade fit), so it shows interest in hearts, but a hand not strong enough to bid a game forcing 3♥. (I am amazed some are willing to bid 3♥ here with this pitiful hand).

I do not rebid 3♦ here, which I play as forcing, because I do have interest in hearts. Note, double for takeout by me, caters to partner (sitting behind the club overcaller) of converting to penalty. If I had a club stack, I would pass 3♣ and wait for the reopening double... as then partner will be short in clubs.

Since my hand is not strong enough to force with 3♥, and since partner has enough to be in game, without slam ambition on otherwise misfit, and he has minimum game values, a leap to 4♥ is correct. I don't play 3♥ here as forcing, but it is very close to forcing. For those of you who consider it a "new" suit, remember, the double was for takeout, so partner might be under some mild pressure to find a bid... this is quite different auctions where you do not double.

Ben

[flytoox]

[quote name='mike777' date='Jun 20 2005, 03:56 PM'] [quote name='flytoox' date='Jun 20 2005, 10:44 AM'] [quote name='mike777' date='Jun 20 2005, 02:44 PM'] QUOTE HI, Marlowe,
If playing NFB, then I agree with dbl first. BUT if playing std, then dbl first is clearly wrong. As dbl then rebid a major suit at three level is NOT forcing.
My post is to those play std method yet still think dbling first by east is better bridge. [/QUOTE]


What?!

In standard if you x and rebid 3s it is not forcing? Partner can be void and bidding 3s is not forcing? Since when is a freely bid new suit at the 3 level not forcing in standard?

Wayne, all I can do is say if this is standard, when we play please please never never pass a new suit freely bid by me at the 3 level in this type of auction or my 2club openers. I will take all the blame. Thank you in advance. [/QUOTE]
Yes, if playing std and you dbl then bid 3M, it is Not forcing.

If you think it is forcing, please tell me why you didnot start with 2M. [/QUOTE]
I start with X on this hand example playing standard or NFB.

I do not mind playing 3nt even if we have 5-3 spade fit on many hands. [/quote]
Mike, instead of arguing with you here, I will provide an example given by Mike Lawrence(this Mike will be more convincing than me I hope:)):

W N E S
p 1D 2C ?

as south you hold:

S:JT73
H:KJ7642
D:3
C:K5

This is the hand you SHOULD dbl first then rebid 3H if pd rebids his diamond. This is NOT forcing.




Reference: Contested auction by Lawrence, page 92.

[flytoox]

I am quite shocked to see so many good players here saying east's 2S is wrong. Here I will give another similar hand from Lawrence's contested book.


W N E S
P 1D 2C ?

You hold:
S:AK652
H:KT863
D:K4
C:4

The right bid is 2S then follows with heart. If you dbl here, then you will get in trouble if pd rebid 2D or 3D.

See the same book, page 99.

Hope this is helpful.

[P_Marlowe]

[quote name='flytoox' date='Jun 20 2005, 11:08 AM'] [quote name='mike777' date='Jun 20 2005, 03:56 PM']
Mike, instead of arguing with you here, I will provide an example given by Mike Lawrence(this Mike will be more convincing than me I hope:)):

W N E S
p 1D 2C ?

as south you hold:

S:JT73
H:KJ7642
D:3
C:K5

This is the hand you SHOULD dbl first then rebid 3H if pd rebids his diamond. This is NOT forcing.




Reference: Contested auction by Lawrence, page 92. [/quote]
Hi,

the main difference is probably, that a bid of 3H is
nonforcing, the last to speak was partner.

Since I normally play NFB, I will not argue, what is
standard, I would say, if the 3H bid was made, after
opps spoke last and if we are not in a forcing pass
situation, i.e. 3H would be a "free bid", than a 3H
should be forcing, but as I said, I do not play it regular,
so standard may say differently.

Marlowe

[mike777]

flytoox, on Jun 20 2005, 11:08 AM, said:

Mike, instead of arguing with you here, I will provide an example given by Mike Lawrence(this Mike will be more convincing than me I hope:)):

W N  E  S
p 1D 2C ?

as south you hold:

S:JT73
H:KJ7642
D:3
C:K5

This is the hand you SHOULD dbl first then rebid 3H if pd rebids his diamond. This is NOT forcing.




Reference: Contested auction by Lawrence, page 92.

HMM, exactly what is the full and complete auction that Mike L says we should x and rebid 3H nonforcing?

[HeartA]

Chamaco, on Jun 20 2005, 08:20 AM, said:

IMO west should pass the 3C raise by South.

After a 2/1, any double is penalty here, or, at least showing extras (reverse).

With his 11 count, west can happily pass (forcing, after a 2/1) and let east bid.

However, as soon as east shows hearts, west should reevaluate his hand to GF.

Totally agree.

I also agree with Hongjun that East better bid 2♠ if EW didn't play NFB.

[han]

Free, on Jun 20 2005, 08:59 AM, said:

Couple of points:

- I also don't like the 2♠ bid. Dbl describes the hand a lot better, and you can still bid ♠s afterwards to show 5-4 and keep the cuebid available in most situations. Also Dbl and bidding on is stronger than this sequence (if west doesn't dbl).
- Don't like the Dbl, it's imo penalty since there's no other useful meaning.
- 3♥ after that Dbl is 95% forcing imo. Only with a huge misfit and no ♣ stopper you're allowed to pass.

Seems to me like East chose to start with a more difficult approach to describe his hand, which lead to misunderstandings...

I disagree with everything you say here. Really everything.

[han]

Ben, I would expect something like Jx AQxx AQJxx xx for the double of 3C. A decent hand, no known fit, tolerance for spades, length in the unbid suit. With the given hand I would pass (minimal, no spade tolerance).

[luke warm]

my view is, playing standard, both 2♠ and 3♥ are forcing... playing standard, double *then* 3♥ would be at best invitational.. but that's just me, and is another reason i prefer nfb

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Jun 20 2005, 06:40 PM, said:

Ben, I would expect something like Jx AQxx AQJxx xx for the double of 3C. A decent hand, no known fit, tolerance for spades, length in the unbid suit. With the given hand I would pass (minimal, no spade tolerance).

Your partner may be sitting over ther with a club stack (or at least clubs and spades). If you pass, that it is it. The hand will end in 3♣ as your partner can not double (that would be takeout). Here with hearts and diamonds, i feel obligated to make the double, crappy hand not withstanding. If parnter makes a minimum call, ok, enough. He will know the double just shows heart, diamonds, short club, no spade support.. .hey, that is what I got.

Clearly few agree with this approach (read other replies). Equally clearly if you pass with this hand, your partner will either bid 3♥ and you will bid 4, or he will dbl and you will bid 3♥ and he will bid 4. So on this hand, what ever you do should work. The problem is when RHO got cute with 2 card raise and partner has four clubs and doubleont heart. Now a double by you would have talught them a valuable lesson.

Ben

[the hog]

flytoox, on Jun 20 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

Is it just completely wrong? By who's authority pray tell, Fly. The fact is that reponder's double is a FAR better call than 2S, as 1) your are not laying emphasis on a not so great S suit and 2) you are informing opener about 2 features of your hand rather than one. I totally agree with Free's earlier post.

[luke warm]

this is confusing me.. ok, let's stick to standard bidding (no negative free bids)... now then, 2♠ is obviously forcing, right? if it is, it seems to me that 3♥ would have to be

again, in standard, if 2♠ then 3♥ is forcing, how do you show spades and/or hearts and *not* force? it seems to me it has to start with a negative double... after all, if i wanted to force (standard, remember?) i'd bid my suit(s) freely

[Winstonm]

I really don't like opening anemic diamond suits when holding 4H and being forced to rebid diamonds over 1S. So.....

P-1C-1S-P
2D-P-2H-P
4H-P-P-P

Seems a reasonable alternative.

WinstonM

[Echognome]

When 3 suits have been bid naturally, I thought double was penalty except for by agreement (such as snapdragon). Yes we may lose out on the occasional penalty but how often are we going to collect a lot from clubs on this auction. Second, if double by my hand is penalties, then pass is forcing! Then it stands to reason that p's double would be penalties else he can takeout himself. Thus, on the actual deal I would pass (nothing extra to say) and wait until partner bids 3♥ which I can now raise to 4.

[badderzboy]

I've read the discussions with interest, the problem for West is he does not know how strong East is and I would take 3♥ as pass or correct to 3♠ showing a weakish hand at least 5-4 in the majors and a club shortage i.e. just competing for the part score.

East has a number of options over 2♣ , neg.dbl (4/4+ in majors) or a suit bid which I play as a negative free bid so 2♠ here for me is passable i.e. just competing the part-score.

What would 3♣ mean over 2♣ here, I would assume it sets a force and asks West to describe his hand further so West can bid 3♥ showing the 4♥'s, if West bids 3♦, East can bid 3♠ showing 5 Spades and so on.

Steve

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

thinking longer about the problem, there did arise a new
question for me:
Does 3H in the original sequence promises a 4 card suit?
My first inclination was to say yes, but this is probably false,
because, what would you bid with

KQT73
AT7
KQ2
T9

Now there is no discussion about the 2S bid, its forcing,
the suit is nice, but raising 3D to 4D cant be the true way.

Marlowe

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Jun 20 2005, 11:37 PM, said:

flytoox, on Jun 20 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

Dbl rather than bidding 2S is completely wrong and shortsighted. What do you do if pd rebid 3D? You cannot bid 3S in that case 3S is nonforcing.

What is wrong with 2S? You can always rebid 3H to show 5-4 majors.

IN the given auction, opener's dbl is wrong. No matter what it is, this hand should not dbl. Dbl to show heart is particularly wrong. The reason is simple. If pd has heart suit, then he has game force hand and he will always bid it.

I see nothing wrong with responder's 3H. New suit is always GF. After all, 2S showed 10+. Opener should raise to 4H with the hand. This is actually a very good hand, good control, lots of ruffing power.

Is it just completely wrong? By who's authority pray tell, Fly. The fact is that reponder's double is a FAR better call than 2S, as 1) your are not laying emphasis on a not so great S suit and 2) you are informing opener about 2 features of your hand rather than one. I totally agree with Free's earlier post.

1) By the authority of LOGIC. As I said clearly in the previous post. Dbl then rebid 3M shows a hand not strong enough to force to game.

If you think you should start with dbl. Please tell me what do you do with the hand I gave above, holding 4S6H and about 8-9HCP.

2) By the authority of Lawrence. I also gave the reference above. Please chcek them out.

[flytoox]

Winstonm, on Jun 21 2005, 01:11 AM, said:

I really don't like opening anemic diamond suits when holding 4H and being forced to rebid diamonds over 1S. So.....

P-1C-1S-P
2D-P-2H-P
4H-P-P-P

Seems a reasonable alternative.

WinstonM

This is a different story.

[flytoox]

luke warm, on Jun 21 2005, 12:18 AM, said:

this is confusing me.. ok, let's stick to standard bidding (no negative free bids)... now then, 2♠ is obviously forcing, right? if it is, it seems to me that 3♥ would have to be

again, in standard, if 2♠ then 3♥ is forcing, how do you show spades and/or hearts and *not* force? it seems to me it has to start with a negative double... after all, if i wanted to force (standard, remember?) i'd bid my suit(s) freely

Jimmy, 2S then 3H is 100% forcing. I strongly suggest you to get a copy of Lawrence's complete book on contested auction, rather than reading some apparently misleading post here.

I can even buy you a copy if you have any doubt. But you have to pay me double if you find it is really great:)

[flytoox]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 21 2005, 07:30 AM, said:

Hi,

thinking longer about the problem, there did arise a new
question for me:
Does 3H in the original sequence promises a 4 card suit?
My first inclination was to say yes, but this is probably false,
because, what would you bid with

KQT73
AT7
KQ2
T9

Now there is no discussion about the 2S bid, its forcing,
the suit is nice, but raising 3D to 4D cant be the true way.

Marlowe

This is a good question. If opener has 4 heart suit, he can raise 3H to 4H, no matter what 3H is. If responder has only 3 hearts, he can still decide to play a 4-3 fit 4H, or return to 5D.

With the hand you gave, you should start with 2S. If LHO raise to 3C and pd pass, and RHO pass too, you can double to show the hand. If pd doulbed 3C and it is takeout(I dont know what it Should be, but without discussion I think you should play it as penalty), you can rebid 3D. This should be forcing.