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I HATE pre-empts ...bid by the oppos...

#1 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 07:30

Consider this (I'm south):

Clearly East is continuing the pre-empt, leaving me with few options. The best I could think of was to double, hoping partner would take it as 'optional', taking out or passing as he sees fit. He, perhaps, wisely chose to pass.

4X went 2 down which was rather disappointing seeing as we have an all but solid 6/6 (or 6NT if are led).

All at the table agreed I had no way to advance. Is there one?
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#2 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 07:39

4NT for the minors isn't unreasonable. Nor is a 5C call.
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 07:46

I think it's pretty standard these days to play 4NT as two-suited takeout over a 4 pre-empt - in this case, partner would bid 5 and now it's up to you.
In any case double must be three-suited takeout which doesn't seem indicated with such poor hearts, however strong the hand.
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#4 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 07:47

View Postsfi, on 2019-January-09, 07:39, said:

4NT for the minors isn't unreasonable. Nor is a 5C call.
I don't have that convention. Is it a form of the Unusual NT? Might be worth thinking about. TBH, defence of opening 3's and 4's is something I've rather neglected. Perhaps need to do some reading...
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 08:26

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-January-09, 07:47, said:

I don't have that convention. Is it a form of the Unusual NT? Might be worth thinking about. TBH, defence of opening 3's and 4's is something I've rather neglected. Perhaps need to do some reading...

Yes. Most of the time 2-suited and minors are the same, sometimes, it is possible to show hearts.
The meaning of 4NT would be purey minors, if the preempt was not prolonged, but now the 4Nt bid could
contain any 2-suited hand.
Most would require 5+5+.
The alternative meaning for the 4NT bid is T/O, if it happens over a 4S preempt, indicating a likely void
in spades, ... and no interest in defending, X after 4S would still be T/O, but if partner is broke he should
only remove with exceptional distribution.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 09:40

At this vulnerability I would be doubling 3 as North. Yes you read that right. Not totally ideal admittedly. Though I wouldn't be doubling if West had opened 4 which is what he's worth.
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 09:47

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2019-January-09, 08:26, said:

Yes. Most of the time 2-suited and minors are the same, sometimes, it is possible to show hearts.
The meaning of 4NT would be purey minors, if the preempt was not prolonged, but now the 4Nt bid could
contain any 2-suited hand.


Are you saying that in a situation like the one illustrated 4NT could be any 2-suited, but that in an overcall of a first seat 4 pre-empt it would be purely minors?
I would have thought that if the two possibilities are to coexist then it should be the other way round, becoming purely minors only in a case like this where partner already had a chance to expose hearts.
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#8 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 10:07

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-January-09, 07:30, said:

Consider this (I'm south):

Clearly East is continuing the pre-empt, leaving me with few options. The best I could think of was to double, hoping partner would take it as 'optional', taking out or passing as he sees fit. He, perhaps, wisely chose to pass.

4X went 2 down which was rather disappointing seeing as we have an all but solid 6/6 (or 6NT if are led).

All at the table agreed I had no way to advance. Is there one?


double is poor, but your partners pass is insane lol
as others have said it's between 4N and 5C for you, and partner should just boost it to 6
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#9 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 10:31

over 4s the 4n bid is much better reserved for showing ANY 2 suited hand vs just the minors. The main reason for this is because using 4n this way allows the 4n bidder to show hearts and clubs or hearts and diamonds or clubs and diamonds. That is 3 times as many hands plus allowing for the higher scoring heart contract to remain in play as a possible landing spot. Note how Pecestom bids 5d (not 5c) this is because if south has both minors 5d seems like the better choice but if south has hearts and clubs then 5h comes into play (a place north is well prepared to play). Having said that I would have been seriously tempted to bid 5s if south had bid 4n. This might allow us to get to 7 if south spade A is the heart A instead.
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#10 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 11:13

I think double is a decent bid if you haven't got 4NT in your arsenal as two-suited, but it's still worse than 5C. If partner has hearts and can't leave the double in, you're in too much trouble to justify making the bid. As it is, your partner took the double as pure penalty (only explanation for passing, I'm sure we agree) and missed a slam that's not hard to get to.
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#11 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 11:13

I think double is a decent bid if you haven't got 4NT in your arsenal as two-suited, but it's still worse than 5C. If partner has hearts and can't leave the double in, you're in too much trouble to justify making the bid. As it is, your partner took the double as pure penalty (only explanation for passing, I'm sure we agree) and missed a slam that's not hard to get to.
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#12 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 14:24

As others said, over a 4S preempt, X is values / usually 3.5 quick tricks at least, with adequate support in unbid suits. The reason is that if partner has very little and is balanced, it can be passed with a good expectation to set the contract. Or if partner is very distributional and has some values, there is good expectation to make a 5 level contract and score more than just setting 4S.

Then 4NT is usually a 2-suiter (55 at least, 4-5 losers max depending on vulnerability?). As otherwise you cant show H, whereas over a 4H preempt you can still try 4S with a S/minor 2-suiter and 4NT with minors only.

On the 3S-4S sequence, you should apply the same principles.

Here you were lucky that opponents (W especially) were shy. Id have taken the plunge at 5C though, as the 2 suits are too dissymertical (risk of ending in 4-3 fit at 5D), and to be sure not to hear N bid 5H over a X.

N was thankfully asleep or on a different wavelength and passed, so a disaster was avoided. He should just bid 5NT pick a slam over X as he has a S void, good honors and at least a single or dble fit for you. You might miss a good 7 sometimes but preempts are made for depriving you of bidding space, and bad breaks / ruffs on the opening lead might doom an otherwise good grand.
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#13 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 14:41

View Postpescetom, on 2019-January-09, 09:47, said:

Are you saying that in a situation like the one illustrated 4NT could be any 2-suited, but that in an overcall of a first seat 4 pre-empt it would be purely minors?
I would have thought that if the two possibilities are to coexist then it should be the other way round, becoming purely minors only in a case like this where partner already had a chance to expose hearts.

No, I was discussing (3S) - 4NT. 4NT now is minors.
(4S) - 4NT now some play 2-suited, some play Takeout
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#14 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 14:48

If you ever read any of Victor Mollo's Bridge in the Menagerie series, you would see that 4NT over a 4 bid was always for takeout, typically three-suited, while double was primarily for penalties.

In most expert circles today, 4NT is used as a two suited takeout. Responder assumes the minors and takes a preference. If his bid does not hit one of the suits held by the 4NT bidder, the 4NT bidder bids the next higher suit (5 with the red suits over 5, 5 with the rounded suits over 5). Responder might have to bid 5 even with a preference for diamonds if he cannot stand a correction to 5.

Here, responder would bid 6 intending for the 4NT bidder to pass with clubs or bid 6 without clubs. Alternatively, responder might bid 5 looking for a grand.
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#15 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2019-January-09, 19:01

North should be shot for passing the X with that hand!
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-January-10, 00:15

A lot going on here.

First off, 5C by you is much better than X. X is likely to prompt a 5H bid from partner, and now what? 4NT is not good, as you are not really two-suited.

Second, partner was quite wrong to pass your X of 4S, misguided though it was. He has a moose on that bidding. I would bid 5NT "pick a slam" over the double, and now you will rest nicely in 6C.

Cheers,
Mike
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#17 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-January-10, 02:18

SIR,I presume that you were partnered by a stranger.With that in mind I shall first look at his profile and if it mentions unusual NT I might just, but only JUST,try 4NT,although the hand is a wee bit unsuitable for it(At 5 level one must have at least 5/5 or better in the two suits) .Make thew spade Ace the D ACE and it becomes an easy 4NT bid.We play a 4NT bid as ANY two suited bid.A double ,as we play it is an optional double.(I need not explain this as most, if not all, are familiar with it), With the present hand ,we certainly consider, and consider only, biding 5 Clubs and not 4NT (as we can not possibly confidently say that partner will have 5 diamonds if he chooses to bid 5D). To conclude unless I know what is the meaning of 4S bid by RHO when I can decide my bid..A few days back while kibitzing SILLAFU play where he opened 3S first hand his partner held a STRONG hand and raised to 4S.Opponents (RADIATORS and his partner)passed without a wink.Plaing with a ROBOT I shall bid 5C and forget the deal.
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#18 User is offline   Mkgnao 

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Posted 2019-January-10, 04:21

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-January-09, 07:30, said:

Consider this (I'm south):

4X went 2 down which was rather disappointing seeing as we have an all but solid 6/6 (or 6NT if are led).


6NT is cold on this lay-out (1, 5 and 6 makes 12 tricks). 6NT in South could go down on a -lead if you misguess , but it is very unlikely for someone to underlead their ace against 6NT so you ought to get them right. Notice that 6NT played from North is cold (without breaking 3-0 with West having the length).

I disagree with all the comments fiercely criticizing North's second pass having seen all the hands. Assuming double is penalty, give partner AKx, Axx, xxx, Axxx. 4 is certainly -1, most likely at least -2. If you bid, partner will go down in both 5 and 5. The partner of some of the forum posters will go down even more in 6.
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#19 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2019-January-10, 10:51

I do have sympathy for you (even though I disagree with your Double), but I would be positively LIVID at partner for passing a takeout double with little defense against spades while a guaranteed fit - and one that is likely to be strong - exists.

Partner absolutely should bid 5S with his monster - good values and super support for any suit you might choose. Obviously you would choose clubs and you would get to your club slam - and your Double would have worked out just fine.

Your partner's decision to pass 4Sx is INSANE. Your Double asked him to takeout to a suit and he has absolutely no justification whatsoever to not cooperate. This error is so bad that, unless your partner is truly a beginner, I would NEVER play with him/her again.

I do disagree with your Double however because you have strong reason to believe it is best to play in one of two suits and have ZERO interest in hearts, the suit partner is most likely to bid in response to a general takeout. I would choose either 5C or 4NT (unusual for the minors). When you choose either, partner should cue bid 5S on the merits of his/her monster supporting hand and then pass your 6C follow-up.
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#20 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-January-10, 11:13

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2019-January-09, 14:41, said:

No, I was discussing (3S) - 4NT. 4NT now is minors.
(4S) - 4NT now some play 2-suited, some play Takeout


Got it, thanks. For us the first would be minors and the second 2-suited (minors or hearts).
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