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Forcing pass woes What went wrong?

#1 User is offline   bridgeboy 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 00:43

North:

976
K93
42
AKQJT

South:

KQJ5432
AQ82
-
92

Teams, NS Vul.

Bidding goes:

South West North East
1S Pass 2C 2D
2S 4D 4S 5D
Pass Pass X Pass
5S Pass Pass Pass

Who should have done better?

In particular what would South's bids mean? Pass then 5H? 5H direct?
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#2 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 05:12

After 5-P-P-X-P

The problem was south's 5 bid. True this is a strong slam try, but it denies the heart ACE. So clearly if the strategy is to invite this way you need to bid 5.

The difference between 5-5H and 5-P-then bid 5 over the dbl is this... pass then bid 5 is STRONGER slam try than the immediate 5 bid. Also, pass then 5 promises a diamond stopper, while this is more questionable with the immediate 5 bid. This hand is clearly too strong for the immediate 5 bid, so pass then 5 is in order. North, looking at solid clubs, heart king, will know what pass and then 5 means.. just not enough cards in the deck for it to be anything other than just about what you have... with heart ace solid spades (AKQ) you would have bid slam (least you trying for grand), with spades less than KQJ or AQJ you wouldn't be good enough to pass then bid 5, you would have bid 5 immeidately. .
--Ben--

#3 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 06:20

I think south can simplify the problem by bidding 6S directly. Although Ben's point about 5H is definitely right. However, after pd's 4S, we are unlikely to have a grand slam and we are extremely unlikely to have no slam. So I would bid 6S. This is particularly true for pick-up pds.

For long-term partnership, 5H is more sensible.
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#4 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 08:29

Even if South is denying the heart ace, he is showing a big hand.

Although, if this is a 2/1 sequence, 2 should probably deny a solid suit; else 3. If thats the case, North has reason to believe South has losers in 's and ....although that hand is mighty hard to construct with the FP!
"Phil" on BBO
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#5 User is offline   GijsH 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 08:43

After 5 your pass is certainly forcing as the hand belongs to us.
You are not interested in defending a contract.
So your options are:
5: weak
5: mild slam try with control
pass, then 5: good slam try, no control
pass, then 5: good slam try, control

I think 5 over 5 is just right: mild slam invite with control.

North's pass over your actual pull to 5 is very poor.
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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 11:41

Let's get one thing straight. Pass and pull is a very strong slam try!
NOT weak or mild slam try. After 2s rebid by opener they could not have anything less. Partner cannot be missing ace or king of s and a of hearts on this auction.

As most of have said 5H is best rebid and 6S least confusion if this is last hand we are ever going to play with this partner. North must still bid 6s over poor 5s rebid, and then can find a new partner for next hand.

Major culprit on this hand is very strong lack of trust in partner knowing how to bid.
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#7 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 11:47

This is a very very complex hand.
May look simple but there're some deep considerations to do.

If you look at the hand from the theory south did well, he passed (forcing) and pulled to invite a slam. That surely shows that diamonds are controlled.
But I think south didn't do so well, with the diamond void and KQJ 7th of spades he knows that his pd is really afraid of losing one spade and one diamond and even with solid clubs he is not going to bid 6 spades. So I think south should realize that there's no way to invite north to slam in a way that north can accept with xx in diamonds, xxx in spades and the heart ace missing.
So bidding 6 directly is better than inviting. Curious hand were practice and theory differ.
The legend of the black octogon.
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#8 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 12:54

I have a similar situation, played a week ago on Abalucy club. South was dealer and the bidding went:

.S......W......N......E
1H....4S....4NT...5S
6H......P......P.....6S
.P......P......X/?

North had
-, JTxx, KQxxxxx, Ax
South:

Should North dbl or bid 7?
Senshu
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#9 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 13:32

HeartA, on Apr 25 2005, 02:54 PM, said:

I have a similar situation, played a week ago on Abalucy club. South was dealer and the bidding went:

.S......W......N......E
1H....4S....4NT...5S
6H......P......P.....6S
.P......P......X/?

North had
-, JTxx, KQxxxxx, Ax
South:

Should North dbl or bid 7?

7 in a flash with some partners, double with others. Let me explain.

Look at it this way. Your bid 4NT, not sure why you bid it I would not I guess this was blackwood despite the void (I would have bid something else as fit nonjump, but that is just me). There is some question here about partnership style. If 4NT promises hearts as trumps, then your partner, with diamond ACE could have cue-bid it over 5 on the way to six hearts. Of course, you would not be able to bid 6 over 6 cue as you don't know how solid or not solid the heart suit is. But maybe, your partners 6 bid is neutral on the diamond ace, and just says I want to be in slam if you are bidding 4NT.

But your partners pass of 6 is 100% clear. He is thinking about the possibility of grand slam. Obviously if you partner DENIED the diamond ACE for his 6 bid, you will not bid 7. IF he had first round spade control and thinking htat way, he would have passed 5 and pulled your double (probably cue-bidding A if he had it). So we know 1) your partner does not have spade control (great), and 2) he may or may not have Ace depending upon your agreements about what a 6 bid would have meant. With most of my partners, the fact that partner did not bid 6 would carry a little extra weight with me, so I would tend to pass the double. With an unknown partner, who still is good enough to know what a forcing pass is, I think I would bid 7....after all, partner could easily be afraid to cue-bid 6 out of fear we would take it to mean he has a diamond suit and is offering a second place to play. The implication that this is diamond ACE can only apply if the meaning of 4NT is crystal clear... "WE HAVE AGREEED TO HEARTS".

Also, if 4NT was BLACKWOOD, why didn't partner respond with DOPI or ROPI responses?

ben
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#10 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 14:20

Thanks, Ben for your analysis.

Actually, I was sitting South, and the hand shown was my pd's. We were new partnership (well, played a couple of times before, but less than 20 boards as I remember) and I was not sure of what 4NT meant. So I bid 6 (I had 2 small s, could be almost sure my pd had control on ). After 6, I was willing to go grand if my pd had first controls on black suits (void in and A). My pd doubled and opps made 6 while we were cold on 7. As it was red to red, this was about 30 imps swing (assume opps wouldn't sac at 7).

My hand was xx, AKQxxxx, Ax, xx. 4 bidder was void in and dummy was void in (no ruff).
Senshu
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#11 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2005-April-26, 12:31

Both players could had bid on another way, There is a lot to say of South bidding 6 directly after 4, but also Noth could had bid 5 instead of doubling with a hand that rates as clearly offensive, not defensive.
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