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Lionel defence to 1NT Lionel vs "Druid"

#1 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2005-April-25, 17:35

[Slightly modified repost from RGB]

I've been thinking about Lionel recently. For those who don't know, it
is a highly regarded but underpublicised defence to 1NT:

Dbl = spades+another, frequently 4-4, 11+ points
2 = clubs+hearts, same shape+strength requirements
2 = diamonds+hearts
2M = natural
2N = minors
3m = natural

It probably works best against a weak NT, where it can frequently get them in 1NT X when strength is split evenly between the two defenders.

I am considering a couple of changes:

1) Make the double show hearts+another, and the 2C and 2D bids show
spades. This is known as "Pagan" according to David Stevenson's site,
presumably after top British player Ian Pagan. I've also been told that it is known as Druid.
* It would seem to make more sense to aim for 1NT doubled when we are
less likely to win a part-score battle
* The double should be passed fairly frequently so really needs to be
kept upto 11 points by an unpassed hand, whereas the bids could be a
bit more flexible when the conditions are right. There is more to gain
by competing holding the boss suit, so it is more useful to be able to
get involved on weaker hands holding spades than holding hearts

Against this, a double holding hearts and a minor could encourage the
opps to scramble to their spade fit when a 2C or 2D bid would not have.

2) Against a weak NT, I think 2NT as a GF two suiter would be useful, particularly as these hands can't start with a double if they have the "wrong" suits. A couple of alternatives:

2 show and either or (or if change 1 didn't come into affect, clubs and a red suit). This lets us compete more often but we will miss our best fit more often. 2N is a GF 2 suiter.

Leave 2 as it is, and make 2NT show either the minors or a GF 2 suiter
without hearts (without spades if X showed spades+another).

Assuming the continuations would be manageable, I think I prefer the second option - If we compete in the minors and find a fit at the 2 level, it is likely the opps will then find their major suit fit (possibly *because* we competed).

Any comments? Ta
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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2005-April-26, 00:59

Hi,

I like Lionel very much and play it in my regular partnership.

1) Lionel Wright tried to play, that the double showed Heart + another,
but was not really satisfied with the results.
One possible disadvantage is, that the double creates
a lebensohl situation, and if the double promises
heart+another, the cue bid ist cheaper, opponents can still
play 2S in the 4-3 fit, also responder has the ability to show
all possible strengths, if he holds a one suited hand with spades.

2) no comment

3) You can play Lionel also against strong NT. Simply let the bids promise
at most 11 HCP. If you compare Lionel with DONT, you will see, that both
work similar, only that Lionel in contrast to DONT focuses on the mayor suits.
Playing Lionel, you loose only the ability to compete with one suited hands
on the two level, where the long suit is a minor.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2005-April-26, 03:34

If dbl shows and another suit, opps will usually have a fit, if is not your second suit. So your dbl will help opps to find their fit, while your p has to guess about your second suit.
If you dbl with and another suit, p has to guess your second suit too, but he can win the auction bidding 2 even with only a 3 card support. This will often pay of even if your fit in a minor is better.
Defining both your first and second suit when you hold 's solves this problem.
So i don't think switching is a good idea.

You won't hold a gameforcing in 2nd seat very often, after your RHO opened a normal weak NT (12-14), so i think you can live without it.

Most NT openers won't have 5card majors, but they will have sequences to find a fit in the majors. So i won't worry about that. If 2 NT shows the minors, at least you forced them to act on the 3 level. Don't underestimate the chance that p with stopper in the majors will just let it stand.
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#4 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2005-April-26, 11:06

hotShot, on Apr 26 2005, 10:34 AM, said:

If dbl shows and another suit, opps will usually have a fit, if is not your second suit. So your dbl will help opps to find their fit, while your p has to guess about your second suit.
If you dbl with and another suit, p has to guess your second suit too, but he can win the auction bidding 2 even with only a 3 card support. This will often pay of even if your fit in a minor is better.
Defining both your first and second suit when you hold 's solves this problem.
So i don't think switching is a good idea.

Just to check I've understood you correctly - the advantage for Lionel over Druid comes when:

They manage to compete to 2;
Playing 2 or 3m would be a better score than defending 2, but playing 3 would not be;
We cannot reach 3m

My instinct says that this is fairly infrequent and that the loss is worth being able to compete more frequently in spades when the conditions favour it. Maybe it is best to use Lionel in direct seat or vulnerable and Druid balancing NV :rolleyes:
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#5 User is offline   david_c 

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Posted 2005-April-26, 11:27

Assuming that responses to the double are pass/correct, isn't it marginally easier to find your best fit when double promises spades? If double shows hearts and another, then you might miss a spade fit when partner has 5=3=3=2 say. But I doubt this is a serious problem.
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#6 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2005-April-26, 11:30

david_c, on Apr 26 2005, 06:27 PM, said:

Assuming that responses to the double are pass/correct, isn't it marginally easier to find your best fit when double promises spades? If double shows hearts and another, then you might miss a spade fit when partner has 5=3=3=2 say. But I doubt this is a serious problem.

I was thinking that a 2 response to the double should show a hand that would rather play in or than , but would choose over . I guess this gives more info to the opps than a 2 response that just says you would choose over but over .
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#7 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2005-April-28, 17:56

Thanks for the replies. I've been persuaded to go with double as spades and another! For anyone interested... 2 will be clubs and a red suit (at least 4-4 if hearts, at least 5D4C if diamonds - this will keep it easy to find our heart fits), 2N 16+minor single suiter or GF 2 suiter without spades, 3m 10-15, 3M 16+. The minimum strength for double and 2m bids will be reduced for balancing NV - I'm thinking maybe 9 points by an unpassed hand, 8-11 by a passed hand.

Thanks again
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