[whereagles]

Ah, ok. Yes rebid 2H if min.

[han]

This thread shows that 2/1, just like sayc and most likely any other generic system, has many subtle auctions that leave casual partnerships guessing. Regular partnerships that have discussed these subtleties have an edge over casual partnerships, but no matter which style they choose, there will always be hands or auctions that give them problems.

When playing with someone like Luke Warm, I would be happy to agree to their style, even though it is of course inferior ( ). This seems like a topic that many partnerships don't take as seriously as they should.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I put forward for discussion the thesis that shape solves more problems than it creates.

You have made this claim, but you really haven't shown any good example hands to show your side of the argument. Can you give a hand where shape first solves a real problem?

The argument for using a low level catchall with hands unsuitable for other action is that one still has a fair amount of room to search for strain, and that by the critical decision making level, typically 3nt (since that is often the last making contract), one usually has enough information about distribution, strength, and honor location to make a reasonable decision. Even though the catchall bid loses definition, all the other bids gain definition & presumably lead to better contracts on average than a looser approach. And hands that bid the catchall, after one more round of bidding, have often passed more information across at the same level as a "shape first" auction, because one hand may have limited itself & the other hand had more bidding options available at a safe level.

On the other hand, if you are bidding shape without regard to strength, you accelerate the auction, you are making expensive bids (high reverses, raises), that rob bidding room. Why is this better? Generally the more bids the partnership makes before reaching a given level, the more information can be passed & a more accurate decision can be made. You are almost certainly losing ground on all these hands.

All this just so that 2M can guarantee 6? Where's the examples of this great gain that can be had from 2M guaranteeing 6?

[luke warm]

Hannie, on Apr 19 2005, 12:12 PM, said:

When playing with someone like Luke Warm, I would be happy to agree to their style, even though it is of course inferior ( ). This seems like a topic that many partnerships don't take as seriously as they should.

hehe... we've played enough where you know i don't *have* a style

anyway, it isn't that big a deal to me, in the one really serious p'ship i had we made a concious decision that 2nt would show the balanced minimum, 5 cards only in the major... that's all

by the way, i much prefer to show the spades (say 4/5 or 4/6) with a min opener, once partner has bid 2c or 2d, but can live with rebidding hearts and letting responder show his, if he wants... i just haven't seen a lot of necessity, playing serious 3nt and fred's cue bidding style, with using a reverse when minimum

[awm]

AQTxxx
Axx
Ax
xx

Kx
xx
Kxxx
AKxxx

Playing 2♠ as a catch-all, I'd expect the following auction with the top hand dealing:

1♠-2♣-2♠-3♦

Surely the spade suit is not good enough to rebid 3♠ at first turn. Since the spade rebid is quite often five, a 3♠ bid by responder over it should show three-card support and set spades as trump. With no heart stopper, responder makes a natural 3♦ bid. Now north is in something of a bind. He could rebid 3♠, but if partner holds:

x
Jxx
KQJx
AKxxx

You will now be unable to stop in 3NT. Most likely will play 4♠ which has some chances, but I suspect 3NT will be a superior contract.

So north could well rebid 3NT. This will end the auction, because opener could certainly hold:

AJxxx
KQx
xx
Qxx

Even if north does bid 3♠ now, can responder really set spades in a forcing way? Rebidding a minor would presumably be natural (and, if minimum, denying a heart stop). Perhaps you could argue that a 3♥ bid by opener somehow shows this hand, but you can just reverse the hearts and diamonds (in both the two hands) and such a bid will be unavailable.

Anyways it seems as though this slam is very likely to be missed. Playing a style where 2♠ shows six:

1♠-2♣-2♠-3♠...

now that spades have been set as trump it should be straightforward to get to the excellent slam.

As another example:

AKxxx
Axx
x
Jxxx

xx
xx
AKxx
AKQxx

Playing a style where raises show extras:

1♠-2♣-2♠-3♦

Should opener now bid 4♣? Certainly on the example hands above, this will be right. However, it seems like bypassing 3NT on a minimum could easily be wrong. If opener rebids 3NT the auction is likely to end there, and a good slam will be missed. After a club raise and two cuebids, finding slam would have been trivial.

Of course, perhaps you can argue that south should bid 2NT at second turn with both hands. But then, why is it okay for south to bid 2NT with a suit (hearts) wide open and with off-shape hands, whereas north is not supposed to do so? Can't this "wrong-side" the 3NT? If south should bid 2NT with basically any hand lacking a fit for opener's suit, you will solve some problems in exchange for others.

[Chamaco]

Quote

Playing 2♠ as a catch-all, I'd expect the following auction with the top hand dealing:

1♠-2♣-2♠-3♦

Many 2/1 players use the cheapest step by responder as "Bourke-relay" type, asking opener to clarify his hand, exactly to avoid being squeezed after a 3D rebid.

So 2NT would be the*artificial* rebid, opener would clarify his hand, and many troubles you quote in all your hands would be avoided.
Basically the idea is always t keep the bidding low.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, all these example show that it seems better for opener, to use *cheapest step* as catchall instead of major suit rebid, as someone already mentioned.
This way bidding stays low and responder has much more room to show/ask features.

In the present case:

1S:2C:?
....-2D =catchall , may have long spades or features unbiddable at the 3 level
....-2H =natural
....-2S= diamonds (substitutes the waiting bid)

1S:2D:?
....-2H =catchall , may have long spades or features unbiddable at the 3 level
....-2S= hearts (substitutes the waiting bid)

1S:2H:?
...- 2S catchall (what else ? )

[Flame]

Serious/nonserious 3NT can help.

[Chamaco]

Flame, on Apr 20 2005, 01:22 PM, said:

Serious/nonserious 3NT can help.

Sure serious/unserious 3NT helps when we found a major fit;
however here the discussion is on 2/1 misfit auctions

[beatrix45]

A lot of good postings on this topic, but there is one perspective I didn't see: ESTABLISHING OBJECTIVES ASAP. Yes, we are in a game force, but is our main objective now just to bid the right game or is slam still in the wind? I think this is why opener's rebids that use up bidding space w/o confirming a useful trump fit are best defined as showing extras.

Prior to 2/1, an auction like 1♦ - 2♣ - 2♥ didn't promise extras, but a high reverse like 1♥ - 2♦ - 3♣ did. This still makes sense to me. Similarly, auctions like 1♥ - 2♦ - 3♦ also suggested extras because (esp. at matchpoints) finding a minor suit fit doesn't necessarily confirm a place to play at the game level when 3NT is an option (9 tricks vs 11 for the same score), but this isn't nearly as important a consideration for slams. Minor suit contracts score almost as much as NT contracts at the slam level.

It would be nice if 1♥ - 2♣ - 2♥ promised a 6 bagger, but that makes 2NT an overworked 'catch all' bid. Remember, that with a game force established and only at the 2♥ level, you still have lots of room to investigate, and you have done something very important by advertising a minimum with your simple 2♥ rebid even if your suit length is still ambiguous. ESTABLISHING OBJECTIVES ASAP IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN TELLING YOUR STORY.

The principles underlying the basic structure of 2/1 seem to be pretty much the same as those of SAYC. The early game force of 2/1 (a prime example of the benefit arising from the early establishment of objectives) frees up a lot of subsequent bids that can then be given special meanings. The earlier trend was to use them for preemptive bids like WJS or for 'picture' bids like splinters. More recently, we are starting to see them used as an introductory portal for relay sequences - e.g. the 'serious' 3NT. Indeed, why use all double jumps as splinters (tying up two or three bids) when you can pick just one of them as a portal and reveal the short suit on the next round (see, also, the 'multi-2D' opening bid).

That's why I really, really want to preempt and otherwise jam your auction.