[jdulmage]

MickyB, on Apr 15 2005, 07:56 AM, said:

Just wondering if someone could explain the benefits of reverses after a GF 2/1 not promising extras. How do you sort out when you have values for slam and when you do not?

It's GAME FORCING, therefore you can use other means to find a slam, such as

1♦-2♣-2♥-2♠ (Fourth Suit Forcing) and then start cuebidding over that. Even bidding slower allows you to determine if you have slam versus a quick arrival.

[the hog]

jdulmage, on Apr 18 2005, 05:10 AM, said:

MickyB, on Apr 15 2005, 07:56 AM, said:

Just wondering if someone could explain the benefits of reverses after a GF 2/1 not promising extras. How do you sort out when you have values for slam and when you do not?

It's GAME FORCING, therefore you can use other means to find a slam, such as

1♦-2♣-2♥-2♠ (Fourth Suit Forcing) and then start cuebidding over that. Even bidding slower allows you to determine if you have slam versus a quick arrival.

Having to go via 4th suit forcing in strong auctions when you may or may not have support for partner is one reason to ensure that reverses DO show extra values. It is convoluted bidding, as at described above, that gives 2/1 gf a bad name.

[whereagles]

luke warm, on Apr 16 2005, 08:23 PM, said:

i disagree... notice i don't want to post my hands, i want you to post your hands... it's true that a person can post any hand to fit any philosophy, but i'd still like to know how you'd bid on the examples i gave, neither of which is in the least unusual

Well, I'm not going to post any hand. But if you want to volunteer some, I might tell you how I would bid them.

[luke warm]

i did, more or less... here's what i asked:

"your partner opens 1h and you bid 2c with a 3235 13 count... now he bids 2h with a 3613 11 count... your bid... change his hand to a 3532 12 count... he again bids 2h... your bid... "

[han]

With 3235 shape I rebid 2NT. This is usually a balanced hand, so I don't see the problem. Partner will bid 3NT with the 5332 hand, and probably not with the 6322 shape.

[mike777]

Hannie, on Apr 18 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

With 3235 shape I rebid 2NT. This is usually a balanced hand, so I don't see the problem. Partner will bid 3NT with the 5332 hand, and probably not with the 6322 shape.

Good Grief, if you rebid 2nt with 13 hcp after 1h=2c=2h then what does 3nt rebid show? I thought we bid slow with big hands and fast with minimum hands but....

I would think if responder rebids 2nt with second bid that is much stronger than rebid of 3nt but this thread seems to say no or is this just another point of confusion in 2/1? Note if bidding goes 1h=2d=2h=2nt( what does this mean compared to 3nt)? Or are we just making random nt rebids to go along with with our random shape 2h but minimum rebids?

[awm]

There are plenty of problem hands with both styles, regardless of whether high reverses show extras. To give some problems with the style where reverses do show extra:

KQxxx
x
KQxxx
Qx

I'm sure most of us open this hand. Suppose the auction begins 1♠-2♥. I'm sure someone will argue that this hand has extras; if you really open that light then change one or two of the pointed queens to a jack. Assuming you don't bid 3♦ with any 5-5 hand regardless of strength, this hand will rebid 2♠. Partner rebids 3♥. So now your choices are:

(1) Rebid your ratty five card spade suit for the THIRD time in the auction.
(2) Bid 3NT and pray partner doesn't have two small clubs.
(3) Introduce diamonds at the four level, bypassing 3NT and hoping pd doesn't take it as a cue.
(4) Raise partner's hearts on small singleton with quacky holdings in the side suits.

Playing that reverses don't show extras: 1♠-2♥-3♦-3♥-3♠. The three spade bid here doesn't show six, since we'd have bid 2♠ at first turn. It's basically a punt saying "I don't like your hearts, I have no clear club stopper for 3NT, please do something intelligent."

As another example:

AQTxxx
Kx
xxx
Ax

Auction starts 1♠-2♥-2♠-3♦. Now what? We haven't shown any of the following:

(1) The sixth spade. Should we bid 3♠ now to show it?
(2) The partial support for hearts. Should we bid 3♥ now? Will partner take that as a min with a real fit (or does a direct 3♥ at least not show extras)? Will partner bid 3♠ over 3♥ with five hearts and Kx of spades, or prefer to bid 3NT?
(3) The club stopper. Should we bid 3NT now?

It seems like whatever we pick, something can potentially be lost. If the 2♠ rebid had already shown the sixth spade, we could infer from partner's 3♦ bid that partner does not have honor-doubleton in spades. We can continue with 3♥ knowing that (1) and (2) have both been identified, and that partner can bid 3♠ as a punt to get us to call 3NT with a stopper.

Of course it's easy to come up with examples where the style of reverses NOT showing extras comes to grief. However, the majority of these examples will be slam hands (i.e. where opener DOES have extras, and you can't figure it out). This is a somewhat less frequent situation than two minimums looking for the right game.

On another note, many people seem to want the 2NT rebid to show exactly 5332 (doubleton in partner's suit) and stoppers in BOTH unbids. This seems kind of extreme -- this 2NT bid is extremely specific whereas 2♠ basically gives NO information. Playing this style, how do you consider:

1♠-2♥-2NT-3♦?

It seems like there's no reason for this to be a stopper probe -- opener already showed a club stopper with 2NT and there's no reason to pinpoint a weak suit for the opponents. So it must be some sort of slam try. But there's no reason to introduce a four card diamond suit, since 2NT rebid shows 5233 exactly. So it must be 5-5 or better in the reds with slam interest, despite the fact that partner has shown wastage in the blacks. In fact, some people insist that 2NT shows a minimum hand (not 18-19)! How frequent is a 5-5 or better slam try opposite a balanced minimum with wastage? It seems like these sequences will almost never occur, and perhaps might be put to better use.

Anyways, I know plenty of good players who prefer either of the two styles with regard to reverses. Hardy even mentions in the 2/1 book that high reverses showing/not showing extras are a matter of partnership choice and that both treatments are reasonable.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Good Grief, if you rebid 2nt with 13 hcp after 1h=2c=2h then what does 3nt rebid show? I thought we bid slow with big hands and fast with minimum hands but....

3nt would show extra values, but limited, ~16-17 or so. With 18-19 you would bid 2nt planning to bid 4nt next time. This is the standard approach recommended by almost every 2/1 system book I've read (Hardy, Lawrence, Robinson). Slow with big hands, fast with minimum hands only makes sense in situations where partner is limited & you are certain what strain to play. Otherwise jumps should show specific features. If you try to play the other way you are just handicapping yourself. If you jump to 3nt with a minimum GF, you are frequently taking this action, and removing the ability to explore for alternate superior games. Luckily most of the time you will survive it, but you are frequently giving up one of the benefits of 2/1GF, a forcing 2nt rebid. With the extra values 3nt is often the right spot even with an alternate strain available (adequate stoppers more likely, don't have to ruff winners), so the reduced ability to explore strain is less burdensome. Also your 2nt becomes this unwieldy wide 16-19 range, it is hard for partner to know how much to bid over this.

Quote

I would think if responder rebids 2nt with second bid that is much stronger than rebid of 3nt but this thread seems to say no or is this just another point of confusion in 2/1?

It's a misconception many people hold who have not studied the books on the matter, and have picked up misguided notions about the reasons for fast arrival from other players.

It's necessary to have a catchall. Rebidding the major on 5 is not a disaster. You still have the 3 level available to back in to a 6-2 fit. If you insist on having the major rebid show 6 (which can admittedly be helpful), then you have to do things like bidding 2nt off-shape & without side stoppers, which often fetches 3nt, down first 5-6 tricks, because of either no stopper or wrong-sided stoppers. I don't see many people using the Bergen 2nt catchall. More often I see the "only shape matters" people, who raise partner's minor, or high-reverse on their 10-11 HCP shapely opening. Then their partner is often put in a no-win situation when they have a little extra but not a lot extra. They'd like to explore for slam opposite partner's good hands, but 3nt will be the limit (or far superior esp. at MP to 5m) opposite his minimums. He signs off, opener can't do anything, good slams are missed. Or they take the aggressive view, opener has the minimum, they go down in 5m when 3nt makes.

I think opener can get away with a 2 level reverse without extras, with appropriate follow auction tools. But I definitely think high reverses/minor raises without extras are unplayable in a "natural" system. You could do it if you have some artificiality to deal with stronger hands, but not without serious discussion. Otherwise it's best to take a cheap rebid, limit your hand.

[Stephen Tu]

KQxxx
x
KQxxx
Qx

1♠-2♥-2♠-3♥-?

This sort of hand is the argument for rebidding side minor strength with an indifferent 6cd heart suit, knowing partner will take the preference on a doubleton not holding a great stopper in the other minor, having denied heart support from not raising. Rather than "must rebid 6 cd heart suit no matter what". So I would pass 3♥ if non-forcing, raise to 4♥ if forcing.

But in any case, compared to the alternate 1♠-2♥-3♦-3♥-?
auction, I think you are better placed. Responder has definitely shown 6
hearts, and he had options of rebidding 2nt/3m with mediocre hearts, whereas after 3♦ his options were quite limited.

Quote

Playing that reverses don't show extras: 1♠-2♥-3♦-3♥-3♠. The three spade bid here doesn't show six, since we'd have bid 2♠ at first turn. It's basically a punt saying "I don't like your hearts, I have no clear club stopper for 3NT, please do something intelligent."

But I think it's harder to do something intelligent, because both hands are unlimited, and 3♥ didn't really show anything. Is it supposed to show 6? Are you supposed to prefer 3♠ on doubletons? How to then distinguish hands that have real spade support? Are you supposed to raise diamonds past 3nt on mins even though partner can easily have the club stopper? And how about better hands, where you want to play 3nt opposite this min, but 6d opposite something better?

Quote

As another example:

AQTxxx
Kx
xxx
Ax

Auction starts 1♠-2♥-2♠-3♦. Now what? We haven't shown any of the following:

This is a clear 3♥ bid, shows doubleton since you would raise directly with a real fit.

Quote

(2) The partial support for hearts. Should we bid 3♥ now? Will partner take that as a min with a real fit (or does a direct 3♥ at least not show extras)? Will partner bid 3♠ over 3♥ with five hearts and Kx of spades, or prefer to bid 3NT?

He'll bid 3♠ with this and no club stopper, with club stopper, you are fine playing 3nt even with 6-2 spade fit.

Quote

On another note, many people seem to want the 2NT rebid to show exactly 5332 (doubleton in partner's suit) and stoppers in BOTH unbids.

I'm not this extreme. My feeling is that it should show something that looks like a stop in the unbids, and just that you think continuations over 2nt will lead you to the right contract more often than choosing some other rebid.

Quote

1♠-2♥-2NT-3♦?

It seems like there's no reason for this to be a stopper probe -- opener already showed a club stopper with 2NT and there's no reason to pinpoint a weak suit for the opponents.

Well, this is somewhat of a philosophy question. With a concentrated 5-5, even without slammish values, it might be right to introduce diamonds, 5d or a 5-2 . Opener is allowed to rebid 2nt on somewhat tenous stoppers, opponents who lead from their longest/strongest suits will tend to find your weak suit even if you didn't pinpoint it for them.

[whereagles]

luke warm, on Apr 18 2005, 06:52 PM, said:

i did, more or less... here's what i asked:

"your partner opens 1h and you bid 2c with a 3235 13 count... now he bids 2h with a 3613 11 count... your bid... change his hand to a 3532 12 count... he again bids 2h... your bid... "

Ok, with 3532 12 hcp I bid like this:

1H 2C
2NT

The 2NT rebid is 12-14 or 18-19 (follow up with a natural 4NT in the later case). A 3NT rebid would show 15-17 balanced. With a 3613 11 hcp the rebid is 2H:

1H 2C
2H

eventually followed by 3C, depending on what pard bids.

This is all book bidding, so where's the problem?

[EricK]

Couldn't most of these auctions be improved by making the cheapest rebid by opener the catch-all (including all balanced hands) and swapping the other responses as appropriate?

Eric

[Chamaco]

EricK, on Apr 19 2005, 07:53 AM, said:

Couldn't most of these auctions be improved by making the cheapest rebid by opener the catch-all (including all balanced hands) and swapping the other responses as appropriate?

Eric

Yes.
- 2NT would show 64 distribution with extras (5.5- losers or 15+ hcp), 3C by resp. asks side bagger;
- 3X would be natural 55 or better or semisolid single suiter (if jump rebid), with extras (same as above).
- suit rebid by opener would be the substitute of the waiting bid:
e.g.
1S:2D:2H (waiting, nothing to say, might have a featureless hand or extra length in spades but not good enough to jump to 3S)
1S:2D:2S = shows hearts (substitutes the 2H waiting)

[whereagles]

There's a lot of scope for maximization, but then you get into the usual problem of more precision = less mnemonics = much more memory

[luke warm]

whereagles, on Apr 18 2005, 08:21 PM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 18 2005, 06:52 PM, said:

i did, more or less... here's what i asked:

"your partner opens 1h and you bid 2c with a 3235 13 count... now he bids 2h with a 3613 11 count... your bid... change his hand to a 3532 12 count... he again bids 2h... your bid... "

Ok, with 3532 12 hcp I bid like this:

1H 2C
2NT

The 2NT rebid is 12-14 or 18-19 (follow up with a natural 4NT in the later case). A 3NT rebid would show 15-17 balanced. With a 3613 11 hcp the rebid is 2H:

1H 2C
2H

eventually followed by 3C, depending on what pard bids.

This is all book bidding, so where's the problem?

there is no problem, if that's your bid... i was replying to this from you:

Quote

One of the greatest problems of 2/1 GF is the misconception it naturally instills on players that you can just bid out shape and forget about points. This is bad strategy and will lead to poor results on the long run.

it seems to me that your 1h/2c/2nt is the 'catchall' they're talking about, tho most use 1h/2c/2h here... to me, 2h should show 6+ hearts, and you seem to agree

i tend to agree that 1h/2d/3c should show extras, but can make a case for it not

[Chamaco]

luke warm, on Apr 19 2005, 11:01 AM, said:

 

Quote

it seems to me that your 1h/2c/2nt is the 'catchall' they're talking about, tho most use 1h/2c/2h here...

Well, in Mike Lawrence's style of 2/1 (and whereagles' description seems very much like it is), 2NT has a very strict definition:

- must have 2+ cards in responder's suit. So featureless 5431 with singleton in pard suit cannot rebid 2NT.
- it must have all side suit stopped; so a 5331 with one suit Jxx is not allowed


There are plenty of hand types that won't be able to bid above 2M (showing xtras) nor bid 2NT, and all these hands rebid 2M.

Example 1: 1H:2D and you have Kxx-AQJxx-x-Qxxx. You cannot rebid 3C nor 2NT.
Example 2: 1H:2C and you have Kx-AQJxx-xx-Qxxx. You cannot support directly 3C because it should show extras, cannot bid 2NT , unstopped diamonds.
Example 3: 1H:2D and you have Kxxx-AQJxx-x-Qxx. You cannot support 3C because it should show extras, can't reverse to 2S,can't bid 2NT.

The "waiting bid" tells that the hand is more or less featureless, except occasionally extra length in spades OR support for responder suit, but in that case with a weakish opener.
It does help limiting the hand, because when you DO support immediately responder's suit, you promise a good hand, and slam investigation is greatly improved.
Using 2NT as catchall is bad when you have unstopped suits (wrongsides contract), and I hate to bid it with a singleton in pard's suit.

Quote

to me, 2h should show 6+ hearts, and you seem to agree
i tend to agree that 1h/2d/3c should show extras, but can make a case for it not

In his book "The uncontested auction", ML shows that in his system opener should rebid 2M even on a suit like 87654, when he has no alternative rebid.
I personally would not go as far (I would not open 87654 1M because to me it is a 4 bagger), but it does show that 2M rebid has no implivations of extra length/strength in the suit.

But of cours ML style is not the only one on this planet :-)

[whereagles]

Well, in my way of bidding (and I stress it's only my way), the auction

1H 2D
2H

shows one of the following

1. 5-4 with 4 spades or clubs OR DIAMS, and a min hand 12-14
2. 6 hearts and nothing better to say, probably around the 11-14 range
3. Eventually a 12-14 balanced hand without tenaces, hoping pard will bid NT. (Very rare, and a bit of a mastermind I agree.)

If opener has 4 diams and a min, he will support later, e.g.

1H 2D
2H 2NT/3C
3D <-- honest support, 3 or 4 cards, and most importantly, a MIN hand.

The advantage of not bidding shape right away is more visible for slam bidding. Suppose opener is min with 4522 and responder has 4153 and slam ambitions. Then it will go

1H 2D
2H 2S
3S

now responder knows opener has 5-4 but also that he has a min. Now resp can use a serious/frivolous 3NT if he wants to ask opener whether his min is fit for slam or not.

Compare with bidding shape right away:

1H 2D
2S 3S

now opener can be anywhere from 12 to 20 points!! The difference in precision is striking. On the 1st case you're in the 12-14 range and in the second a 12-20 range is possible.

[Chamaco]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2005, 11:51 AM, said:

Well, in my way of bidding (and I stress it's only my way)

That's pretty much Mike Lawrence's style described in "2/1 Workbook" and "Uncontested auction quizbook".

[mike777]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2005, 06:51 AM, said:

Well, in my way of bidding (and I stress it's only my way), the auction


1H 2D
2H 2S
3S

now responder knows opener has 5-4 but also that he has a min. Now resp can use a serious/frivolous 3NT if he wants to ask opener whether his min is fit for slam or not.

Compare with bidding shape right away:

1H 2D
2S 3S

now opener can be anywhere from 12 to 20 points!! The difference in precision is striking. On the 1st case you're in the 12-14 range and in the second a 12-20 range is possible.

Thanks for discussing perhaps the number one worry about rebids of shape over hcp. I would go further and say opener may have 10-20.

Neither method is fully satifactory in resolving the main problem of 2/1, level vs strain. I put forward for discussion the thesis that shape solves more problems than it creates.

BTW I assume in your methods with 6-4 and minimum, most of the time your rebid is 2h not 2s but perhaps not.

In your wonderful example 1H=2D=2S=3S
Opener has shown very often 5H and 4S around 11-13 with hcp in suits. But opener could be 10-20 yes. Must admit in our style it seems opener having unbalanced 14 hcps and the opp being silent and responder having 14 hcp seems rare so we cater more to weakish hands.
Responder very often has 5D-4S and 14+hcp(not 12).

As responder this is not an issue for me that I do not know if p has 11 or 15 or 18pts. I get the impression in this thread it is for most. If I understand the discussion this seems to be the number one issue, yes there may be other issues.

I would put forth for discussion if you feel comfortable you know what you want to do now over 3S given these parameters try shape as it is more natural and less catchall, if not play hcp.

[whereagles]

mike777, on Apr 19 2005, 03:15 PM, said:

BTW I assume in your methods with 6-4 and minimum, most of the time your rebid is 2h not 2s but perhaps not.

If you mean a 6-4 spades/hearts, I can point out that there is a trend of bidding in SAYC that bypasses hearts if the 6-4 is weak. I learned this from a book of Frank Stewart.

In 2/1 it is even simpler to implement this trend, since there's no worry of stopping short of game. Something for serious partnerships to consider. At the moment I'm rebidding hearts regardless of strenght, but will give the matter some consideration at some stage.

[mike777]

whereagles, on Apr 19 2005, 10:27 AM, said:

mike777, on Apr 19 2005, 03:15 PM, said:

BTW I assume in your methods with 6-4 and minimum, most of the time your rebid is 2h not 2s but perhaps not.

If you mean a 6-4 spades/hearts, I can point out that there is a trend of bidding in SAYC that bypasses hearts if the 6-4 is weak. I learned this from a book of Frank Stewart.

In 2/1 it is even simpler to implement this trend, since there's no worry of stopping short of game. Something for serious partnerships to consider. At the moment I'm rebidding hearts regardless of strenght, but will give the matter some consideration at some stage.

I meant 6 hearts and 4 spades minimum I assume you rebid 2h most of the time but ok.