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Cheating Allegations

#121 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 14:27

some videos up on bridgecheaters
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#122 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 14:39

Hey, if we're going to advocate that bridge should go electronic, how about other games? Let's see how good Serena Williams is at Wii Tennis.

#123 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 14:46

Obviously I am happy to take the word of world class players that leading a club from Kxx QTxx Kxx Jxx against 1NT-p-p-p is absurd but would someone care to explain why? I personally would choose a heart but I rather prefer leading from Jxx to leading from Kxx.
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#124 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 14:50

In that auction, if you have a reasonable major suit, it's probably the best lead. See the Bird & Anthias book.

#125 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:01

View PostMrAce, on 2015-August-30, 12:53, said:

Let me tell you what, and I supported Richard (Hrothgar) in BW when he suggested the electronic playing environment. However most of the Brits, especially David Gold, is suspecting that they somehow getting the hand records. If a big IF, they are capable of hacking into hand dealing machine, playing in an electronic environment can be more dangerous. Not only for the alleged pair but anyone who has the skills to hack into computers. And if there are people who can hack into FBI files, I bet it is child game to hack into ACBL or WBF and get the hands and/or manipulate the deal machine to deal the hands they want or even enter themselves.

I think it will eventually be the only way to detect them manually by "peer juries" and "how they cheat, which info they send, what is their code" will not be the bar to set in order to come to a conviction.


Timo this is the opposite, when you play in an electronic enviroment you only deal hands AFTER everyone is sit. You use seeds that are handed by 2/3 different persons and add the current timer or something. There is no way to get access to deals, there are no persons in charge of dealing, you even save a lot of budget for not carrying screens, boards, dealing machines, vugraph operators, etc.

I agree that electronic enviroment has severe disadvantages, but the advantages are much more. The great thing about it is that it doens't require to replace screens. For some years you can run the electronic bridge world championships and see how they go.
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#126 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:01

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-August-30, 14:46, said:

I personally would choose a heart but I rather prefer leading from Jxx to leading from Kxx.


Jxx is much more likely to blow a trick than Kxx. You should lead a major. QTxx has a good chance of setting up a trick. Really every single top player would lead a heart on this auction.
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#127 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:06

I saw the videos and I don't find them very convincing.

First one might be based on a read. I don't know if it is really possible to risk going down on a cold contract based on a read like that. What I find obvious is that it is not based on them having access to deals or else they would be on the cold 6 spades that scores higher, so appart from that only other option I can think is they have an electronic equipment atached to their toes, and someone watching vugraph is talking MORSE or whatever with them.

Second one... Brogeland made the same lead?

Third one... diamonds were breaking on a way that suggested more spades were on west.
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#128 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:09

Are you serious? You didn't watch the videos very well.

Louk showed Lotan his hand on board 1 before dummy came down. So that is how Lotan knew that he had a stiff trump. That is on video and not disputable, whether he signalled Ron or not is unclear but Lotan knew Louks trump holding.

On board 3 he peeks at his screenmates hand on his way to get water or to the bathroom or wahtever. That is how he knew who had the queen in the key suit. When he comes back he moves only his left and and moves it frequently, keeping his left elbow low enough where his partner could see.
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#129 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:12

Seems like I missed the important part of the videos lol.
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#130 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:37

In shocking news I looked up the hand and it was fishers left hand opponent who had the queen fwiw.
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#131 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:39

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-August-30, 15:09, said:

Louk showed Lotan his hand on board 1 before dummy came down. So that is how Lotan knew that he had a stiff trump. That is on video and not disputable, whether he signalled Ron or not is unclear but Lotan knew Louks trump holding.

He tugged on his sweater twice... someone more dedicated than I might watch the rest of the video to see how many similar sweater-tugging motions there were.
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#132 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:48

Yep, Boye said in his norweigan interview that the sweater = problem in trumps
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#133 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 15:53

For those who doubt his methods, the IBF is holding a special committee to address this (and also to review their processes that allowed this to happen), the ACBL is now going to have a special committee and enlist the help of "experts" and hopefully make that a permanent thing going forward, the top players know that we are also responsible for allowing it to get this far and will know how to organize and handle this more effectively going forward if the governing bodies wont (I mean he got the nuts on them in 2 weeks using a lot of youtube and vugraph archives lol)...

This was actually brilliant. I never would have thought of this but I am coming around to cherdanos view that he is amazingly smart.
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#134 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 16:33

I am not entirely convinced by the 3 videos.

The sweater tugging looks very suspicious but for it to be 100% convincing I think someone (not me!) has to look at other video of bad trump breaks and normal trump breaks where Fisher is dummy, and has a chance to look at a defender's hand...or not. If, for example, on hands where he clearly doesn't look or there are no trump issues, he tugs his sweater or shirt, etc, in a similar fashion, then the argument is at least weakened if not destroyed. Otoh, if he only does this when he has seen a problem, then the answer seems obvious.

On the small heart, I was initially sceptical, because, at the risk of claiming a level of expertise I do not have, the small heart looked absolutely normal. I suspect I would have tanked before making it, if only because in matches of that importance (I have never played in a match that important but have played in lots of team trial final matches), most players tend to take a long time over even normal decisions. Heck the other table, on essentially the same auction, led a heart, and the commentator at that table, a good player, predicted a major suit lead.

However, and this struck me as worth investigating: Schwarz, who wanted a heart lead, removed the tray and placed the board on the table, noticeably to his left. Now, dummy was to his right and he may well have been leaving room for dummy's cards. But, given that they like to play N-S (this is not in itself suspicious to me: I have had teammates, who don't cheat, express strong preferences for sitting one direction), maybe they use the position of the board as a clue. It should be easy, if time consuming, to see if this is so.

For one thing, look at which one of them removes the tray. Is it seemingly random, or is there a tendency for the non-leader, on defence, to remove the tray? If so, can we cross-reference suit holdings to position of the tray?

On the slam, I see what I think is some strange body positioning from Fisher, but I am not entirely convinced.

I don't see these videos as the 'spade Q' if by that it is supposed to be better than the hands that made up the jack. I do, however, think that there is enough in the videos that if corroborated by video of other hands, especially on tray placement and sweater tugging hands may be damning. Likely 100% damning.
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#135 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 16:39

I am pretty sure Brogeland does not consider the lead of a heart from T9xx K9x Txx 97x suspicious by itself...
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#136 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 16:44

Mike, hand 2 is water bottle imo. The 1 and a half minute tank was an act. lol @ tanking 1 and a half minutes on a 2N 3N lead when you are one of the fastest players in the world.

But yeah I think on bridgewinners someone said Boye himself led a heart. Don't think the action itself is that fishy.
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#137 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 16:47

As far as video evidence I think hand 3 is extremely damning, peeking at someones hand without asking and then reapeatedly moving your left hand when the guy you peeked at had the Q is pretty lol.

Hands 1 and 2 need more evidence of such behavior to make a pattern, which I am sure he has. On their own they are nothing.

But hand 1 is the most amazing when you combine how ridiculous the play is (oh right Ron had a read) with the fact that Lotan looked at his opponents hand, with everything else. But again the sweater thing is not a pattern until more evidence is provided, which I'm sure it will be.
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#138 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 16:51

I can't get to see videos. Hell, I can't even get into BW, must be too many hits that crashed BW.
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#139 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 17:18

View PostMrAce, on 2015-August-30, 16:51, said:

I can't get to see videos. Hell, I can't even get into BW, must be too many hits that crashed BW.

It was down for maintenance I think, but back now. The video of the segment v the Dutch with the slam hand missing Jxxxx is on here.

Repeated for convenience as they say:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=KHDSvRJkv6I

I think it is worth going to Board 4 at 36.00, where Fisher is thinking with xxx KJ x AKJxxxx , after (4D)-4S-(5D), and Schwartz then fans and unfans his cards and gives a quick crimp to the corner of the cards, which will always give a slight noise, but will be perceived by most as fidgeting. It would be unfair to suggest that this shows a void and slam interest, and Fisher was fully worth his jump to 6S ... The Dutch did well to save in 7D.
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#140 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-August-30, 17:40

View Postlamford, on 2015-August-30, 17:18, said:

It was down for maintenance I think, but back now. The video of the segment v the Dutch with the slam hand missing Jxxxx is on here.

Repeated for convenience as they say:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=KHDSvRJkv6I


Thanks m8!
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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