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Very good points, Adam.

That's exactly some of the benefit of playing Acol.

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There's an outline of a well structured weak NT system, K-S, here.

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1. Opening 1NT and using transfer and stayman is useful to let the strong hand play. This is less usefull when playing weak NT and therefor this is an disadvantage of weak NT?

I play 2c/2d as inv/gf stayman. 2m is sing off, 2nt and 3m nat. invits, 3M GF with 5cards.
I will try to campare it with standard mehods (stayman, transfers):

You don't have to give up transfers while playing inv/forcing stayman.

ETM Weak Notrump Version of 1NT Structure

This Weak notrump structure is "simply"(just ignore the relay part after 2♦
response) cool.

[fred]

I have zero experience playing 4-card majors, but I always thought that when you play weak notrumps and 4-card majors that it made no sense at all to open 1 of a major on a 4-card suit when you have a strong notrump.

The reason is that you won't know whether or not to pass when partner responds 1NT (as he will a lot of the time) and you will also have a problem if partner offers a single raise of your major (unless that call is specifically defined as being either forward going or not forward going facing a strong notrump).

I might be missing the point since I have seen some strong Acol players open with a 4-card major on strong notrump hands. How they survive I have no idea.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Stephen Tu]

Acol is supposed to be played with extremely light 2/1s (8+ in old days, gradually getting stronger), so 1nt response is quite limited, strong NT can pass. But it's all rather flawed theoretically, very light 2/1s mean lack of ability to temporize later (more NF calls), adversely affecting game/slam bidding. Kokish wrote some articles on how he thinks it's best to pair weak nt & 5cM, strong NT & 4cM. With the latter combination you get a lot of the preemptive effect of the weak NT, opening min hands with 4cd majors, with more safety, and without the problem of needing really light 2/1 responses.

According to postings on other groups I think most top British players switched to 5cM and/or strong club and/or strong NT.

[MickyB]

Weak and 4 don't go together at all, although they have the benefit of simplicity(assuming you consider light 2/1s simpler than GF 2/1s). Much of the English elite plays Strong NT, often with 4 card majors - they go together well, the biggest downside is that a 1M opener promises less playing strength than in other systems.

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In a natural system (i.e. not forcing club) it seems like weak notrumps would work a lot better with four card majors than with five. To address some of the problems mentioned:

In competitive auctions, after say 1C-(2S), holding around 9 hcp without four hearts, it's usually possible to raise opener's minor. Since 1C guarantees four, it's perfectly safe to bid 3C on four cards here, expecting partner to bid 3NT with 15-17 balanced. It's also fairly safe to bid 3C on five cards with 7-8 points, as 3NT will often make via the big minor fit (which strong notrumpers are unlikely to find after 1NT-2S). Even with THREE card support, a 3C bid on 9-10 points can be a winner, since opener will have five clubs (or 15-17 balanced) virtually all the time (the exception being the rare 4441 hand). In fact, when partner has the weak shapely hand, you may well win here by being able to compete in a minor.

Holding the awkward 1453 type hand, 1H can be opened if the hearts are strong. This would also be the typical opening with 1444. Occasionally you will be "preferenced" back into a 4-2 fit but this is rare (and at least the hearts are strong). With good diamonds, opening 1D and rebidding 2D should be fine.

It seems like the loss of the "preemptive" effect of the 1NT opening on strong hands is somewhat countered by opening 1-major (instead of 1-minor). You may end up playing some 4-3 fits at the two level, but this could be a good result as easily as a bad one, and again there is often a choice of openings, so the four-card major opens tend to be decent suits.

Sorry Adam, but I don't think your points have much merit. The first two apply just as much to weak+5 as they do to weak+4. The third is actually a disadvantage. With a strong NT, you want to be able to describe your hand, either by opening 1NT or by rebidding 1NT; Opening 1M on a flat 16 preempts yourself more than it does the opps.

[MickyB]

fred, on Feb 10 2005, 12:59 AM, said:

I have zero experience playing 4-card majors, but I always thought that when you play weak notrumps and 4-card majors that it made no sense at all to open 1 of a major on a 4-card suit when you have a strong notrump.

The reason is that you won't know whether or not to pass when partner responds 1NT (as he will a lot of the time) and you will also have a problem if partner offers a single raise of your major (unless that call is specifically defined as being either forward going or not forward going facing a strong notrump).

Opening 1M on strong NTs is a problem, as Stephen has said. The strength of your 2/1s has to be related to the strength of your hand opposite a flat 15, which isn't ideal, even if you prefer light 2/1s.

However, once you are opening 1♠ on 4333, you may as well do it on 4432s with 4♠4minor. Otherwise you start needing checkback, Walsh, etc, and it doesn't really gain you much to know that partner will probably have a 5 card major.

I believe that it is standard for 15- bad 16 bal to pass a single raise or a 1NT response, and for good 16+ to bid on.

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Weak and 4 don't go together at all, although they have the benefit of simplicity(assuming you consider light 2/1s simpler than GF 2/1s). Much of the English elite plays Strong NT, often with 4 card majors - they go together well, the biggest downside is that a 1M opener promises less playing strength than in other systems.

I guess there's probably some valid argument on why weak NT works better
with 5 card major and strong NT works better with 4 card major...
But what I could see here is only some barren claims without any
reasoning or argumentation.

1♣-(2♠)-?
Playing 5 card major, here I couldn't see how you are able to bid 3♣ with only
4 cards support.

First, let me clarify the terminology, What I am talking about is 4 card SUIT open
(the way ACOL is), it's different from the term "4 card major". That is, with
4M & 4m, I open the minor.

For me, I play 4 card SUIT open with weak NT. When I open 1M, it's either 5 cards
or 15-18 HCP, promising more playing strength. also, as Adam pointed out, the
sequence 1m-1M-2M promise more playing strength, too. in 5M system, opener
may have a shape of 4432, 3 cards in the opened minor, But in 4 card suit open+
weak NT system, it's guaranteed 5-4 distribution, or 4-4 with side singlton.

1NT response are limited up to 9HCP usually, with 15-16 HCP, opener passes, with
17-18 HCP, opener invites.

Two over one can be light(8+HCP with fit), that means wider range and harder
to command, but it is not inferior. For example, After a 1M open,
a major-game invitation may start with 2 over 1, which gives the opener a good
chance to evaluate the fit in the side suits. It's definitely better than 1M-3M or
any type of artificial raise, or forcing 1NT then 3M raise. The later leaves less
room for judgement.

[fred]

This discussion about 4-card majors has reminded me of one of the truly awful things about weak notrumps:

There is no good way for responder to bid hands in the 6-10 point range that lack a 4-card major after a 1 diamond opener. Your bad choices are:

1) Respond in a 3-card major (this is Kokish's preferred "solution")

2) Play a wide-ranging 1NT response (and endplay opener when he has a strong notrump) not to mention often playing notrump from the wrong side.

3) Play 1D-2C and/or 1D-2D as potentially light and potentially not really natural thereby making it impossible (or at least extremely convoluted) to have a good auction after the auction starts this way and opener does not have a strong notrump.

4) Always open 1C (ie never open 1D) when you have a strong notrump.

I suspect 4) is the least bad choice, but if you do this you are not really playing a "natural system" anymore (yes the same argument could be made but not nearly as strongly to any system based on 5-card majors).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[the hog]

"Weak and 4 don't go together at all, although they have the benefit of simplicity(assuming you consider light 2/1s simpler than GF 2/1s). Much of the English elite plays Strong NT, often with 4 card majors - they go together well, the biggest downside is that a 1M opener promises less playing strength than in other systems."

A very odd view. Weak and 4card Ms goes together fine and if you read "Partnership Bidding in Bridge", is actually a far more playable combination than strong and 4. If by "the English elite" you mean the Hackett's they actually play a 14-16 NT, not 15-17. Their whole system is predicated on opening 1M as often as possible and they frequently canape with weak hands. This is an advantage in my opinion, hardly a disadvantage.

[fred]

Hog,

I don't think the Hacketts' notrump range qualifies as "weak".

To me to say that a bidding system is a "weak notrump system" means that a 1NT opening is weaker than a 1NT rebid. The Hacketts' 1NT openings are 14-16, but their 1NT rebids are 11-13. So I would call their system a "strong notrump system" even though their notrump range is a little less than what is traditionally played in "strong notrump systems".

Not that this relevant to the current discussion, but my regular partners and I play a different defense to a weak notrump opening than we play to a strong notrump opening. For this purpose we define "weak notrump" as meaning "at most 15 HCP".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Stephen Tu]

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1♣-(2♠)-?
Playing 5 card major, here I couldn't see how you are able to bid 3♣ with only
4 cards support.

- just on frequency partner will usually have 4+ clubs. The average length of a club opener playing 5 cd majors is well over 4. RHO having 5-6 spades also increases partner's expected club length.
- if he does have only 3, he can take a stab at 3nt with 15+ bal.

Personally, when playing wkNT/5cM, I am willing to bid 3♣ here on *3* card support & 8-9 pts, not having 4+ hearts, and will usually survive just fine.

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First, let me clarify the terminology, What I am talking about is 4 card SUIT open(the way ACOL is), it's different from the term "4 card major". That is, with
4M & 4m, I open the minor.

Acol isn't capitalized; it's not an acronym but a street in London. Anyway, if you are opening the minor with 44s, the only time you are opening the 4 card major is with 4333 & I suppose some 4441 shapes. The frequency is cut down so much that really you might as well play 5cM and get the advantages of a 5cM system. Do you really feel you get to better contracts opening 1♠ on 4333 rather than 1♣? I doubt it.

All you are gaining here is an assurance that partner's minor is 4+. I personally don't think that's worth much. I just assume partner is 4+, and if he isn't it doesn't matter usually. Either we end up in NT or the opponents outbid us in a major.

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may have a shape of 4432, 3 cards in the opened minor, But in 4 card suit open+ weak NT system, it's guaranteed 5-4 distribution, or 4-4 with side singlton.

Huh? I thought you said you opened the minor with 4-4 major/minor. So 5-4 distribution or singleton isn't guaranteed, it could be 4342 or similar.

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Two over one can be light(8+HCP with fit), that means wider range and harderto command, but it is not inferior. For example, After a 1M open,
a major-game invitation may start with 2 over 1, which gives the opener a good
chance to evaluate the fit in the side suits. It's definitely better than 1M-3M or
any type of artificial raise, or forcing 1NT then 3M raise. The later leaves less
room for judgement.

You may get better hand eval on some light invitational hands, but on stronger hands by either opener or responder, you will have more difficulty because of the need to jump to create a GF. You don't have as many bids available to temporize to hear more from partner, since you may get dropped there. British slam bidding in international competition using these older type of methods was always considered notoriously poor.

[Stephen Tu]

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There is no good way for responder to bid hands in the 6-10 point range that lack a 4-card major after a 1 diamond opener. Your bad choices are:

3) Play 1D-2C and/or 1D-2D as potentially light and potentially not really natural thereby making it impossible (or at least extremely convoluted) to have a good auction after the auction starts this way and opener does not have a strong notrump.

I use (3), and it's not that bad! For one thing, the auction hardly ever comes up. 99% of the time, responder has a 4 cd major, or the opponents bid something. Then if responder does make the 9+ 2c/2d response, some very large portion of that time opener does have the strong NT. (If both opener & responder are min, the opponents are usually in there).

One of my regular partnerships adopted Kokish artificial rebids after 1d-2c, we've played them for 4 years, and I can't remember ever bidding anything other than 2d or 2nt.

[Stephen Tu]

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Weak and 4card Ms goes together fine and if you read "Partnership Bidding in Bridge", is actually a far more playable combination than strong and 4

?? That book is all about competitive bidding. I think there is little doubt that from a constructive bidding standpoint, weak + frequently opening 4cM is somewhat unsound.

The main point of that book re system style is that weak + 4cM leaves you better placed in competition than strong + 4cM, when partner opens a major and the opponents intervene. But that's offset by being able to open a major more frequently in the first place.

Weak + 4 is a more preemptive opening style. But I question whether it makes sense to preempt when you have the 4cM strong NT hand. I think these are your side's hands, and you harm your own side more than theirs.

Strong + 4 you'd get to open the 4cM quite aggressively with greater frequency, and with some of the constructive bidding disadvantages mitigated.

[the hog]

"I don't think the Hacketts' notrump range qualifies as "weak".

Granted; I would regard that range as intermediate. However I still think that a 12-14 range together with 4 card Ms is quite easy to play. Most of us here have been brought up playing this and no doubt familiarity plays a role.

"I think there is little doubt that from a constructive bidding standpoint, weak + frequently opening 4cM is somewhat unsound."

This contention still has not been proved as far as I am concerned. Most Acolites will open a 4333 15-17 count with 1C, not 1M. These days a lot also open 5332 shapes with 1N if in the appropriate range. There are thus many inferences when you DO open 1M.

[MickyB]

fred, on Feb 10 2005, 06:19 AM, said:

To me to say that a bidding system is a "weak notrump system" means that a 1NT opening is weaker than a 1NT rebid. The Hacketts' 1NT openings are 14-16, but their 1NT rebids are 11-13. So I would call their system a "strong notrump system" even though their notrump range is a little less than what is traditionally played in "strong notrump systems".

I use the same definitions. However... If I was to play a 13-16 NT throughout, passing 11-12 bal in 1st+2nd and opening it with a suit in 3rd+4th, am I playing a variable NT?!

[MickyB]

awm, on Feb 9 2005, 10:34 PM, said:

In competitive auctions, after say 1C-(2S), holding around 9 hcp without four hearts, it's usually possible to raise opener's minor. Since 1C guarantees four, it's perfectly safe to bid 3C on four cards here, expecting partner to bid 3NT with 15-17 balanced.

I agree with just about everything Stephen has said in his last few posts.

If 3♣ does invite 3NT here, then playing weak+5 you could bid

1♣ (2♠) 3♣ (P) 3NT

with only 5 clubs between you - let the opps find the club lead now!

1♣ - either nat or strong bal
3♣ - 3+♣, happy to play in 3NT opposite strong bal

This is why I can't see Adam's point as an advantage of Acol.

[awm]

The advantage for 4-card majors comes up when responder has 5♣ and around 7-8 hcp. People playing a strong notrump system (even if 5-card majors) will typically compete to 3 here. Passing is, in general, a losing option. But if opener's going to be expected to rebid 3nt on a strong balanced hand, you'll play a lot of 23 hcp 3NTs. If opener has FOUR clubs, then the 9-card club fit will likely produce tricks, and these 3NTs can easily make (and notice that strong notrumpers won't be able to find them, and will probably pass out 1NT-2S on these hands). But if opener has 3 (or even 2) clubs, the fit is not nearly as effective a source of tricks, and these 23 hcp 3NTs will tend to go down.

If you play that 3 club must show 9 hcp in this auction, you will lose a lot of competitive boards where you may well have a 9+ card fit opposite partner's shapely non-minimum, and just can't find your way back into the auction when the (strong notrump) field has no difficulties.

-- Adam

[fred]

MickyB, on Feb 10 2005, 03:05 PM, said:

awm, on Feb 9 2005, 10:34 PM, said:

In competitive auctions, after say 1C-(2S), holding around 9 hcp without four hearts, it's usually possible to raise opener's minor. Since 1C guarantees four, it's perfectly safe to bid 3C on four cards here, expecting partner to bid 3NT with 15-17 balanced.

I agree with just about everything Stephen has said in his last few posts.

If 3♣ does invite 3NT here, then playing weak+5 you could bid

1♣ (2♠) 3♣ (P) 3NT

with only 5 clubs between you - let the opps find the club lead now!

1♣ - either nat or strong bal
3♣ - 3+♣, happy to play in 3NT opposite strong bal

This is why I can't see Adam's point as an advantage of Acol.

"Perfectly safe" is a serious overbid in my view.

Yes this approach rates to work fine when opener has a strong notrump, but what if opener has an unbalanced hand with clubs and his RHO now bids 4S? Might be nice for him to know that his partner has a real club raise (as opposed to a balanced 9-count that might not even contain 4 cards in clubs).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[arrows]

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This discussion about 4-card majors has reminded me of one of the truly awful things about weak notrumps:

There is no good way for responder to bid hands in the 6-10 point range that lack a 4-card major after a 1 diamond opener. Your bad choices are:

1) Respond in a 3-card major (this is Kokish's preferred "solution")

2) Play a wide-ranging 1NT response (and endplay opener when he has a strong notrump) not to mention often playing notrump from the wrong side.

3) Play 1D-2C and/or 1D-2D as potentially light and potentially not really natural thereby making it impossible (or at least extremely convoluted) to have a good auction after the auction starts this way and opener does not have a strong notrump.

4) Always open 1C (ie never open 1D) when you have a strong notrump.

I suspect 4) is the least bad choice, but if you do this you are not really playing a "natural system" anymore (yes the same argument could be made but not nearly as strongly to any system based on 5-card majors).

The origin of the problem is not strong NT or weak NT, it's when one opens 1♦
and one's partner has a weak response hand with no major to bid.

strong NT players may deem this is less severe a problem just because
the opener's hand is usually weaker than that of weak NT players, hence it's not
a big deal for the responder to bid 1NT ?

I may also deem this is less severe a problem for me, because when responder
has no major, s/he might be able to raise 2♦ (not available to those playing
inverted minors), or with 8-10 points, ♣ suit only, s/he can bid 2♣(not
available to those playing 2 over 1). With 15-16P, opener rebid 2NT, with 17-18P, opener rebid 3NT.

The chances are: with 6-10P, responder can find a bid of 1M or 2♦ or 2♣,
If s/he cannot, still there's chances 1NT *is* the right decription. For me, it is
really not so frequent that the responder has to call a "bad" 1NT. Besides, with
no descriptive bid in hand, one can always consider Pass.

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First, let me clarify the terminology, What I am talking about is 4 card SUIT open(the way ACOL is), it's different from the term "4 card major". That is, with
4M & 4m, I open the minor.

Acol isn't capitalized; it's not an acronym but a street in London. Anyway, if you are opening the minor with 44s, the only time you are opening the 4 card major is with 4333 & I suppose some 4441 shapes. The frequency is cut down so much that really you might as well play 5cM and get the advantages of a 5cM system. Do you really feel you get to better contracts opening 1♠ on 4333 rather than 1♣? I doubt it.

All you are gaining here is an assurance that partner's minor is 4+. I personally don't think that's worth much. I just assume partner is 4+, and if he isn't it doesn't matter usually. Either we end up in NT or the opponents outbid us in a major.

Obviously, knowing Acol was named after a street doesn't necessarily help people understand it better.

The cases I open 4 card major yet have to include 4♠-4♥-32.

I don't think opening 1♠ on 4333 a good idea either. but it's so rare that
I can hardly remember last time I did it. But Other players have to open "fake"
minors everyday during their life time, understandable that they are trying hard
to prove this is the better way.

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may have a shape of 4432, 3 cards in the opened minor, But in 4 card suit open+ weak NT system, it's guaranteed 5-4 distribution, or 4-4 with side singlton.

Huh? I thought you said you opened the minor with 4-4 major/minor. So 5-4 distribution or singleton isn't guaranteed, it could be 4342 or similar.

You miss the target again, with 4432, I'd have already opened 1NT.

With 4432 strong opening hand, I'd have already raised 3M, or even I choose not
to do so, my 2M raise still guaranteed playing values HCP-wise.