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What do you open? and what after 3NT?

#21 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-January-31, 11:58

pclayton, on Jan 31 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

inquiry, on Jan 31 2005, 09:29 AM, said:

cherdano, on Jan 31 2005, 12:11 AM, said:

I don't understand the advantage of passing this hand. If you come in later, you may be able to show a 5-5 major 2-suiter, but you will never be able to show that your hearts are longer than your spades. So I see no gain compared to opening 1 and rebidding hearts twice.

Also, if you pass first, it seems a little difficult to get partner involved in the decision whether to bid game. How should he know that xx Kxxx and out, or KQx xx is enough for game, after you pass first and make a Michaels cue bid later? If I opoen 1 or 1, there is at least a chance he can help me.

I guess if you pass and bid strongly later, the implication is longer hearts than spades, else using the edict to pass marginal hands only if there was rebid problem would not come into play... you would open 5-5 hand 1, and 6-5 hand (six spades), 1. The pass then michaels would imply (or at least suggest) the other way around.

Ben

Wow - 30 ZARs and Ben discusses a PASS? I guess the ZAR-o-astrians don't attend worship on Mondays. :P

1 for me. I know that passing might lead to a simpler auction (but I'm not exactly sure how). Over 1; 4. Over 1N, 2 or 2; 2. 3 later if given the chance.

Lol.. .no I was just referring to what a pass followed by michaels might mean with the agreement suggested by Fred and a few others...

I would open this hand 1 every day. Take a look at the Axxxx Kxxxx void Qxx hand I opened 1 with in the horrible hand of the week thread... clearly I would have no qualms on opening a hand as good as this one!!!

Ben
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#22 User is offline   dogsbreath 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 07:57

ok Guys (and gals)
..someone has to do it ..speak the unspeakable word..

FLANNERY

Rgds Dog :blink:
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#23 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 08:04

Thou hadst spoken the forbidden words! Thou art an heretic! SIEZE HIM! :blink:
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#24 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 09:00

inquiry, on Jan 31 2005, 05:29 PM, said:

cherdano, on Jan 31 2005, 12:11 AM, said:

I don't understand the advantage of passing this hand. If you come in later, you may be able to show a 5-5 major 2-suiter, but you will never be able to show that your hearts are longer than your spades. So I see no gain compared to opening 1 and rebidding hearts twice.

Also, if you pass first, it seems a little difficult to get partner involved in the decision whether to bid game. How should he know that xx Kxxx and out, or KQx xx is enough for game, after you pass first and make a Michaels cue bid later? If I opoen 1 or 1, there is at least a chance he can help me.

I guess if you pass and bid strongly later, the implication is longer hearts than spades, else using the edict to pass marginal hands only if there was rebid problem would not come into play... you would open 5-5 hand 1, and 6-5 hand (six spades), 1. The pass then michaels would imply (or at least suggest) the other way around.

Ben

Ok, I see a point in that. Although as responder, even after a 4 cue bid after p-(1)-P-(3) I would assume that it was a 5-5 hand too weak to open at the one level, but probably with very good suits or maybe even 6-6. And certainly never expect two aces.

You know Ben, for some people, there do exist 5-5 hands too weak for 1...
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#25 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 09:18

I think passing when you cannot describe your hand well by bidding is a sound principle.

Never mind the Zar points. As someone who boycots those, this hand is rule-of-21 and should be opened using that, but come to think of it I would pass this as well (alternative 1, or Wilkosz followed by 3 over partner's expected 2/).

There are several such situations. One from the junior championships in Prague (Board 21.15):

Scoring: IMP

(You are West, i.e. 2nd seat)
The vugraph tables bid like this:

Pass - 4 - 4 - 5
5 - pass - pass - dbl
all pass

Pass - 1 - 2NT - Pass
4 - 4 - 5 - 6
pass - pass - dbl - all pass

I rather like PASS with the west hand for this reason, anyway our auction:
Pole#1 Me Pole#2 Pd
Pass - PASS - 1 - Pass
3 - 4 - 4 - 5
Pass - Pass - 5 - all pass

On the A lead I should have played the Queen (do something special) and not a discouraging 8, maybe then partner would've found a diamond switch, but I felt my bidding must show 4 and although it is trick 1I felt uncomfortable thinking a lot because if partner finds the right continuation after a very slow Queen that might give problems. But this wasn't great either :blink:
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#26 User is offline   HeartA 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 12:31

Jlall, on Jan 30 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

I would actually pass for sure. I even teach students...if a hand is a marginal opener with a rebid problem that can better be described by passing then acting, then just pass. This hand is not a marginal opener in playing strength but i will NEVER open 1S with 5-6 in the majors. I will either reverse light or just bid 1H-2H, or with a hand like this pass. 1H then 2H is not really a good description of this hand, and to me 1S is unfathomable. It is SOOOO important to get to the right fit holding a 5-6 hand. Imagine partner with 2-2 in the majors and you getting tapped down immediately. It will not be pretty. Lets look at some other examples of this principle:

QTx
x
AQxx
KTxxx

For me i would pass, then hopefulyl be able to make a takeout X of hearts. No reason to distort my shape with a marginal opener.

However with

QTx
x
KTxxx
AQxx

I would open.

I feel strongly about this and hope it is not as radical as fred suggests lol.

I agree with Justin on this completely.
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#27 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 13:29

kgr, on Jan 30 2005, 05:38 PM, said:

I think Berry Westra in one of his books (or did I read it somewhere else?) says that jump reverse shows this kind of hand: 6-5 and minimal opening.
Anyone plays this.
what is: 1H-1NT-3S

Yeah I play this, but I don't think that this is a suitable hand. I just started to play this, so it hasn't come up yet. I think Garazzo also recommends this.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#28 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2005-February-01, 18:09

I play that 4 after 1NT shows 5+6 while 4 shows 6+5, sadly it doesn't apply afrer 2, so I will jsut hope partner picks the right major.

I cannot agree less with 1 openers btw.
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