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What do you open? and what after 3NT?

#1 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 09:42

Scoring: IMP

You play a 5-card M system like SAYC.
I did open 1. Agree?
1-2
2-3NT
?? what do you bid now? (Parten did show a good stop in Club. Otherwise he would have bid 4SF).

Remark: Partner did have 2=2=5=4. 3NT and 4S go -1. 4H would make.
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#2 User is offline   flytoox 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 10:37

After 3N, there is not much you can do. Pd will correct ur 4H to 4S. So you will never end up in 4H once you start with 1S.

As for what should be opened, I have sympathy with 1S. NOw you gave out the full hand and it is hard to say. Many would say they will open 1H. I think it is close. If you open 1H, they you may have to hide your spade suit.
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#3 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 10:37

Bid 1H here.

Peter
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#4 User is offline   Gerardo 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 11:43

1 , then 2 and 3 if you are allowed to.

You lack points, but have very nice spots. Fit in either major and (a minor Ace or a useful card in the other major) should give decent chances for 4M.

#5 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 14:14

i'd open 1H and wouldn't even attempt to hide the spade suit
"Paul Krugman is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person sounds like." Newt Gingrich (paraphrased)
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#6 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 14:43

I am not suggesting I would do this (in fact I know I would open 1H), but it would not surprise me at all if a simulation demonstrated that Pass(!) was the winning initial action in the long run.

Please note: I am not saying this hand lacks the values for an opening bid because it has "only 10 HCP". Clearly that is not the case. However, passing now and coming in later (assuming it seems right) may well be your best chance to put both of your suits in perspective.

If I had the same hand with 5-6 in the minors instead of the majors, I think I would actually pass.

Disclaimer: This is pretty radical thinking - most "experts" do not even think about doing such things!

Fred Gitelman
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#7 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-January-30, 15:25

I would actually pass for sure. I even teach students...if a hand is a marginal opener with a rebid problem that can better be described by passing then acting, then just pass. This hand is not a marginal opener in playing strength but i will NEVER open 1S with 5-6 in the majors. I will either reverse light or just bid 1H-2H, or with a hand like this pass. 1H then 2H is not really a good description of this hand, and to me 1S is unfathomable. It is SOOOO important to get to the right fit holding a 5-6 hand. Imagine partner with 2-2 in the majors and you getting tapped down immediately. It will not be pretty. Lets look at some other examples of this principle:

QTx
x
AQxx
KTxxx

For me i would pass, then hopefulyl be able to make a takeout X of hearts. No reason to distort my shape with a marginal opener.

However with

QTx
x
KTxxx
AQxx

I would open.

I feel strongly about this and hope it is not as radical as fred suggests lol.
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#8 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 16:28

Jlall, on Jan 30 2005, 09:25 PM, said:

I would actually pass for sure. I even teach students...if a hand is a marginal opener with a rebid problem that can better be described by passing then acting, then just pass. This hand is not a marginal opener in playing strength but i will NEVER open 1S with 5-6 in the majors. I will either reverse light or just bid 1H-2H, or with a hand like this pass. 1H then 2H is not really a good description of this hand, and to me 1S is unfathomable. It is SOOOO important to get to the right fit holding a 5-6 hand. Imagine partner with 2-2 in the majors and you getting tapped down immediately. It will not be pretty. Lets look at some other examples of this principle:

QTx
x
AQxx
KTxxx

For me i would pass, then hopefulyl be able to make a takeout X of hearts. No reason to distort my shape with a marginal opener.

However with

QTx
x
KTxxx
AQxx

I would open.

I feel strongly about this and hope it is not as radical as fred suggests lol.

Well maybe it isn't as radical as I thought - I have to admit that I expected everyone to think my idea of passing the hand in question was crazy!

I do think the general principle outlined by Jlall is very sound. I would also pass the 11-count with 4-5 in the minors but open the same hand if I had 5-4 instead.

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#9 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 16:32

a simulation might just show that passing with the 5/6 major hand works out at least as well as bidding... hard to do tho

with justin's examples, i'd open 1D with either... but it's a system thing... with #1, i bid 2c over pard's 1h.. he knows i'm 4/5 in minors... on #2 i bid 1nt over 1h and he knows i'm 5/4 in minors.. if he bids 1s i pass either (1s isn't forcing)
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#10 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 16:38

I think Berry Westra in one of his books (or did I read it somewhere else?) says that jump reverse shows this kind of hand: 6-5 and minimal opening.
Anyone plays this.
what is: 1H-1NT-3S
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#11 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2005-January-30, 16:53

typically 3S there would be an autosplinter. I would not feel comftorable forcing to the 4 level with this hand and no known fit even if playing it as min 5-6
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#12 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 17:24

There was an Italian pair in Instanbul who played it that way - they got written up in one of the bulletins as they ended up in 3S on precisely the auction described and made exactly 9 tricks. It does seem unsound though.

fwiw I would open this 1S and rebid H. This is not good enough for a reverse. vul this would be a decent 2 suiter opening if this is in your arsenal; nv its too good for that.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#13 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 19:32

kgr, on Jan 30 2005, 05:38 PM, said:

I think Berry Westra in one of his books (or did I read it somewhere else?) says that jump reverse shows this kind of hand: 6-5 and minimal opening.
Anyone plays this.
what is: 1H-1NT-3S

This sounds strange to me getting so high when the bidding suggest we have a max of 8 card fit. I think playing something like 1s-1nt-3h to show 6H and 5S makes more sense, but i wouldnt add this to my system since i think its doesnt worth it.
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#14 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 22:11

I don't understand the advantage of passing this hand. If you come in later, you may be able to show a 5-5 major 2-suiter, but you will never be able to show that your hearts are longer than your spades. So I see no gain compared to opening 1 and rebidding hearts twice.

Also, if you pass first, it seems a little difficult to get partner involved in the decision whether to bid game. How should he know that xx Kxxx and out, or KQx xx is enough for game, after you pass first and make a Michaels cue bid later? If I opoen 1 or 1, there is at least a chance he can help me.
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 22:15

P.S.: Fred gave an example where he actually passed with an opening hand in one of the Deal of the weeks; I think it was an 13count with 0=4=5=4. There I understand the concept of passing first much better, since a takeout double of spades will enable you to show all 3 suits in one bid.
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#16 User is offline   EricK 

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Posted 2005-January-30, 22:22

cherdano, on Jan 31 2005, 04:11 AM, said:

I don't understand the advantage of passing this hand. If you come in later, you may be able to show a 5-5 major 2-suiter, but you will never be able to show that your hearts are longer than your spades. So I see no gain compared to opening 1 and rebidding hearts twice.

Also, if you pass first, it seems a little difficult to get partner involved in the decision whether to bid game. How should he know that xx Kxxx and out, or KQx xx is enough for game, after you pass first and make a Michaels cue bid later? If I opoen 1 or 1, there is at least a chance he can help me.

On this hand you want partner to bid his longer major but bid if he has equal length . Making a Michael's cue-bid would allow you to do that, and that is the advatage of passing to begin with.

In fact, passing and then bidding strongly makes it more likely that you will get to game when partner is weak but has fitting honours in your suit in that you will have shown precisely this sort of hand rather than, say, a random 5422 hand.

Eric
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#17 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2005-January-31, 05:02

I would open 1S and bid 4H after 3NT. Pard will have to guess whether it's a 6-5 or 5-6, but that's life.

Passing 3NT also comes to mind, but I'm too much of a hog to let pard play it.. lol :lol:
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#18 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2005-January-31, 10:55

I confess I open the bidding 1H. I may lose my S fit as I have no intention of bidding 2S when partner bids 2 of a minor. I also confess that the idea of passing ws not one I considered previously, but feel it is very sensible, my problem however is if partners would ever play you to be this good.
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#19 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2005-January-31, 11:29

cherdano, on Jan 31 2005, 12:11 AM, said:

I don't understand the advantage of passing this hand. If you come in later, you may be able to show a 5-5 major 2-suiter, but you will never be able to show that your hearts are longer than your spades. So I see no gain compared to opening 1 and rebidding hearts twice.

Also, if you pass first, it seems a little difficult to get partner involved in the decision whether to bid game. How should he know that xx Kxxx and out, or KQx xx is enough for game, after you pass first and make a Michaels cue bid later? If I opoen 1 or 1, there is at least a chance he can help me.

I guess if you pass and bid strongly later, the implication is longer hearts than spades, else using the edict to pass marginal hands only if there was rebid problem would not come into play... you would open 5-5 hand 1, and 6-5 hand (six spades), 1. The pass then michaels would imply (or at least suggest) the other way around.

Ben
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#20 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2005-January-31, 11:56

inquiry, on Jan 31 2005, 09:29 AM, said:

cherdano, on Jan 31 2005, 12:11 AM, said:

I don't understand the advantage of passing this hand. If you come in later, you may be able to show a 5-5 major 2-suiter, but you will never be able to show that your hearts are longer than your spades. So I see no gain compared to opening 1 and rebidding hearts twice.

Also, if you pass first, it seems a little difficult to get partner involved in the decision whether to bid game. How should he know that xx Kxxx and out, or KQx xx is enough for game, after you pass first and make a Michaels cue bid later? If I opoen 1 or 1, there is at least a chance he can help me.

I guess if you pass and bid strongly later, the implication is longer hearts than spades, else using the edict to pass marginal hands only if there was rebid problem would not come into play... you would open 5-5 hand 1, and 6-5 hand (six spades), 1. The pass then michaels would imply (or at least suggest) the other way around.

Ben

Wow - 30 ZARs and Ben discusses a PASS? I guess the ZAR-o-astrians don't attend worship on Mondays. :P

1 for me. I know that passing might lead to a simpler auction (but I'm not exactly sure how). Over 1; 4. Over 1N, 2 or 2; 2. 3 later if given the chance.
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