[hrothgar]

Fluffy, on 2013-November-12, 04:31, said:

So I will explain to you why on 5-1 fit scenario where the suit rebid matters, the 9 is worth a trick, and you will reply with some definition on a enciclopedia written by a beginner where honor stops on the 10, ok, you win.

Merely trying to establish whether or not you understand basic definitions like what the word "honor" means.

Pissy little post you made there. Feeling defensive?

[Fluffy]

you are trying to impose your definition of honor over mine, which is totally unrelated to the topic in question. Don't know the meaning of Pissy. I feel like you made an unnecesary cheap shot at something I wrote that was understood by anyone.

[Cyberyeti]

hrothgar, on 2013-November-12, 04:35, said:

Merely trying to establish whether or not you understand basic definitions like what the word "honor" means.

Pissy little post you made there. Feeling defensive?

An over simplistic but useful thing I was taught as a beginner was to regard things like AJ10 as AJJ when counting points, so I totally understand treating AJ109 as 4 honours.

[hrothgar]

Fluffy, on 2013-November-12, 04:40, said:

you are trying to impose your definition of honor over mine, which is totally unrelated to the topic in question. Don't know the meaning of Pissy. I feel like you made an unnecesary cheap shot at something I wrote that was understood by anyone.

Fluffy, I'm willing to give you a little slack because you aren't a native English speaker.

With this said and done, this isn't an issue of "my" definition or "your" definition.

The word "honor" has a specific meaning in bridge which is defined in the laws of the game.
Here's a direct quote from the Laws of Contract bridge (I used the version from the ACBL site)

Quote

Honor — Any ace, king, queen, jack or ten.

[hrothgar]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-12, 05:41, said:

An over simplistic but useful thing I was taught as a beginner was to regard things like AJ10 as AJJ when counting points, so I totally understand treating AJ109 as 4 honours.

Interesting argument. I'll need to try it next time I'm playing rubber bridge...

[hrothgar]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-12, 05:41, said:

An over simplistic but useful thing I was taught as a beginner was to regard things like AJ10 as AJJ when counting points, so I totally understand treating AJ109 as 4 honours.

Interesting argument. I'll need to try it next time I'm playing rubber bridge...

[Cyberyeti]

hrothgar, on 2013-November-12, 07:24, said:

Interesting argument. I'll need to try it next time I'm playing rubber bridge...

Not done that for at least 20 years, clearly it doesn't apply there, I said I can understand doing it, ie not that it is 4 honours, but that it's reasonable to treat it as such.

[hrothgar]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-12, 08:20, said:

Not done that for at least 20 years, clearly it doesn't apply there, I said I can understand doing it, ie not that it is 4 honours, but that it's reasonable to treat it as such.

Do you believe that KQJT2 (or, for that matter AKQJ9) will play for the same number of tricks as AJT9x ?

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-09, 02:51, said:

I feel this hand is fully worth an opening bid, but I open pretty light, QJ is worth its 3 points, AJ109 is worth a lot more than 5, stiff K worth a lot less than 3, overall I assess this as worth a "normal" 11 points, so rule of 20 opening bid. We open based on rule of 19 so it's an easy opening for me.

I would open the hand (1♦) playing strong club too but that system is designed around opening light. My understanding is that your system is too to some extent. That is different for a pair just playing Acol and in that context (and even move so playing 5 card majors) I think the hand is better passed. As Mike suggests, with the black suits reversed I would open in an Acol context too.

Incidentally the idea that 1♣ - 1♠; 2♣ shows 6+ clubs is just silly. It is quite possible to have 5 clubs and 4 of a red suit and lack the values for a reverse here. The usual rule I have seen for deciding which minor to open a minimum (13)45 hand is whether the club suit can stand a rebid, an extremely old-fashioned concept but one that still has a little merit on occasion. With ♣xxxxx it would be logical to prefer 1♦; with hrothgar's AKQJ9 1♣. Without getting into this timeless debate, it is not unreasonable to set a line somewhere between the extremes and stick with it. It is also not unreasonable to decide always to open one or the other with that shape. That is what strong club systems do after all. Arguing that another's style is wrong when it is within the generally played spectrum seems to me to be a little pointless. It is enough to say that there are several viable possibilities here.

[Cyberyeti]

hrothgar, on 2013-November-12, 08:25, said:

Do you believe that KQJT2 (or, for that matter AKQJ9) will play for the same number of tricks as AJT9x ?

KQJ102 opposite xx or xxx will often play for the same number of tricks as AJ109x, I certainly rate AJ109x as good as KQJxx if not better.

[helene_t]

Yes but KQJxx is only three honors (no matter what my signature might suggest)

[Zelandakh]

I would certainly far prefer to have AJT9x over KQJTx in a side suit opposite a singleton when playing a grand slam.

[the hog]

hrothgar, on 2013-November-12, 07:23, said:

Interesting argument. I'll need to try it next time I'm playing rubber bridge...

Maybe you can swap Yeti AJT9 for AKQJ seeing as he thinks its the same. 100 honours anyone?

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2013-November-12, 17:50, said:

Maybe you can swap Yeti AJT9 for AKQJ seeing as he thinks its the same. 100 honours anyone?

Please actually read what I posted before posting stupidities like this.

[the hog]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-13, 03:44, said:

Please actually read what I posted before posting stupidities like this.

Before you post inane responses, I suggest you read Richard's post.

[helene_t]

It is much more fun insulting each other than discussing bridge, isn't it? But that's what we have the Water Cooler for.

[Trinidad]

I would not have opened this hand. But assuming that 2♣ shows 6 clubs is just ... STOP. Helene is right.

I also think that those who condemn anybody for opening this hand 1 ♣ are ... STOP. Helene is still right.

The reason why I didn't reply earlier to this problem was not that I didn't have time (my usual reason). It was because I found it a difficult problem. Only politicians think that difficult problems are best solved by picking a possible solution and then yell loudly that it is the only sensible one.

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

OK, so there's no misunderstanding, this is what I believe:

I would always open this hand, I think it's worth just under its 11 high card points, but I don't have a problem with pass.

If I open 1♣ the only rebid playing weak NT is 2♣ and this in no way shows 6 playing Acol.

I would never open 1♦, vaguely modern Acol never does this unless you have a spectacularly poor club suit and are prepared to deny holding 5. There is more of a case for doing it if 1♦ shows 4 and 1♣ 2.

AJ109x is a fine club holding playing for 4 tricks opposite xx more often than not, so is worth around 6 points rather than 5.

[Trinidad]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-14, 05:18, said:

OK, so there's no misunderstanding, this is what I believe:

I would always open this hand, I think it's worth just under its 11 high card points, but I don't have a problem with pass.

I feel about the same, but on the other side of the line: I would pass, but I don't have a problem with 1♣.

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-14, 05:18, said:

If I open 1♣ the only rebid playing weak NT is 2♣ and this in no way shows 6 playing Acol.

I would take it a step further: Even playing a strong NT, I would rebid 2♣. I don't like rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit.

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-14, 05:18, said:

I would never open 1♦, vaguely modern Acol never does this unless you have a spectacularly poor club suit and are prepared to deny holding 5. There is more of a case for doing it if 1♦ shows 4 and 1♣ 2.

I would open 1♦ with a good four card diamond suit and a poor five card club suit. This may lead to an occasional accident, but such is life. (My 1♦ opening promises 4, or 4=4=3=2; 1♣ can 4=4=2=3,4=3=3=3 and 3=4=3=3, but not 4-4 in the minors. With 1=4=4=4, I would bid 1♦-1♠; 2♣. That means that holding only 4 diamonds will not be a complete surprise to partner.)

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-14, 05:18, said:

AJ109x is a fine club holding playing for 4 tricks opposite xx more often than not, so is worth around 6 points rather than 5.

Of course, though technically the 9 is not an honor, the 10 and 9 have the same trick taking value as the jack. Any discussion about this is ... read Helene's post!

Rik

[Trinidad]

duplicate post