[ahydra]

IMPs, 24-board match.

♠AQ9xx
♥AQ10x
♦Ax
♣Kx

Playing weak NT, 4cM, partner is dealer.

1C-1S
2C-2H
2NT

(or if you bid 3H over 2C, partner bids 3NT)

What's your plan now and what kind of final contract do you envisage?

Thanks,

ahydra

[hrothgar]

ahydra, on 2013-November-07, 18:05, said:

IMPs, 24-board match.

♠AQ9xx
♥AQ10x
♦Ax
♣Kx

Playing weak NT, 4cM, partner is dealer.

1C-1S
2C-2H
2NT

(or if you bid 3H over 2C, partner bids 3NT)

What's your plan now and what kind of final contract do you envisage?

Thanks,

ahydra

I don't think that 3H is forcing, so that seems right out.

A lot depends on whether the 2C rebid promises 6+ clubs.
If so, I'd probably bid a prosaic 6C. If not, 4NT

[RSClyde]

6♣

[nigel_k]

Slam is quite likely if partner has six clubs, but I'm not sure I want to even invite slam in NT if he doesn't. A hand like x KJx QJxx AQxxx would easily be enough to accept a quantitative 4NT.

Assuming no detailed discussion I would bid 3♦ followed by 4♣ and hope partner understands I have this hand when I didn't support clubs earlier. Partner will have to take it from there or we will play 4NT.

[the hog]

I would bid 4NT quantitative.

[Cyberyeti]

3♥ rather than 2 then 4♣ should show a big hand probably with pretty close to exactly this shape, maybe 5512.

This sort of hand is one of the reasons why a decent number of players play 1♣-1M-2♣-2♦ as an artificial relay.

[helene_t]

If I bid 4♣ now, will partner show me ♦K? That would certainly help. OTOH if 4♣ asks him to cooperate with a "suitable" hand it might be even better.

I can't construct a hand with which 6♣ has no play at all. x-Jxx-KQJx-Axxxx is the worst I can think of, but just adding ♣10 would make it a lot better. Opposite that hand 6NT is a bit better than 6♣ but I see no way of finding out.

I think I try 4♣. If p bids:
4♦: I bid 6♣
4♥: I bid 4♠
5♣: I pass.

[the_clown]

As I play it we almost never rebid 2♣ on a 5 card suit (playing strong NT), so I would have an easy 4♣ here.

Playing std methods I guess I would bid 3♦ and wait and see what partner does. It is very ambiguous and I am not confident it will end well, but I strongly dislike 4♣ and 4N because they set a strain that could be terribly wrong.

[ahydra]

I see most people are fancying the slam on this one. This was my partner's hand, he bid 3H over 2C (not sure why, since 2H is F1) then 4C over my 3NT. I tried to sign off in 5C but partner bid 6 anyway.

My hand was ♠K ♥xxx ♦QJxx ♣AJ109x. It was clearly my lucky day because not only did I get a club lead that picked up Qx with RHO, but both red-suit Kings were onside and spades broke 4-3. I scored up 1370 but should have made an overtrick!

Rough estimate of the chance of that layout is about 3%. Obviously the slam is better than that, perhaps 20%, but hardly a thing of beauty

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

ahydra, on 2013-November-08, 08:41, said:

I see most people are fancying the slam on this one. This was my partner's hand, he bid 3H over 2C (not sure why, since 2H is F1) then 4C over my 3NT. I tried to sign off in 5C but partner bid 6 anyway.

My hand was ♠K ♥xxx ♦QJxx ♣AJ109x. It was clearly my lucky day because not only did I get a club lead that picked up Qx with RHO, but both red-suit Kings were onside and spades broke 4-3. I scored up 1370 but should have made an overtrick!

Rough estimate of the chance of that layout is about 3%. Obviously the slam is better than that, perhaps 20%, but hardly a thing of beauty

ahydra

Would have signed off in 4N over 4♣ with your hand not 5♣ and passed it with your partner's hand. For us 4♦ would have been keycard so I can do this.

[helene_t]

You opened a hand with 8 working points and a rebid problem, then it turned out that you only had 5 useful points for partner

[ahydra]

helene_t, on 2013-November-08, 08:58, said:

You opened a hand with 8 working points and a rebid problem, then it turned out that you only had 5 useful points for partner

Well, surely the SK is worth its full value on this auction?

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2013-November-08, 08:58, said:

You opened a hand with 8 working points and a rebid problem, then it turned out that you only had 5 useful points for partner

That's a little unfair, there is no rebid problem, many people just rebid 2♣ and partner knows it can be this type of hand with 4red/5♣, the intermediates and touching honours make it worth opening IMO despite the stiff K.

Traditionally there is a problem with this hand type, you really want to bid "3rd suit forcing" over 2♣ to show a big hand.

Our auction - 1♣-1♠-2♣-2♦(enquiry)-2N(bad 5♣/4♦)-3N or 4N, close decision-P

[hrothgar]

ahydra, on 2013-November-08, 08:41, said:

I see most people are fancying the slam on this one. This was my partner's hand, he bid 3H over 2C (not sure why, since 2H is F1) then 4C over my 3NT. I tried to sign off in 5C but partner bid 6 anyway.

My hand was ♠K ♥xxx ♦QJxx ♣AJ109x. It was clearly my lucky day because not only did I get a club lead that picked up Qx with RHO, but both red-suit Kings were onside and spades broke 4-3. I scored up 1370 but should have made an overtrick!

Rough estimate of the chance of that layout is about 3%. Obviously the slam is better than that, perhaps 20%, but hardly a thing of beauty

Sorry, I assumed that you had

1. An opening hand
2. A 2♣ rebid

I'd pass this hand playing MOSCITO. I can't imagine opening playing any normal system.

If you held a gun to my head and forced me to open, I'd open 1D or 1NT.
A 1C opening would never cross my mind.

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2013-November-08, 08:41, said:

I see most people are fancying the slam on this one. This was my partner's hand, he bid 3H over 2C (not sure why, since 2H is F1) then 4C over my 3NT. I tried to sign off in 5C but partner bid 6 anyway.

My hand was ♠K ♥xxx ♦QJxx ♣AJ109x. It was clearly my lucky day because not only did I get a club lead that picked up Qx with RHO, but both red-suit Kings were onside and spades broke 4-3. I scored up 1370 but should have made an overtrick!

Rough estimate of the chance of that layout is about 3%. Obviously the slam is better than that, perhaps 20%, but hardly a thing of beauty

ahydra

Seems to me that you were trying to fix partner with the blame for reaching a terrible contract, when to a very large part of the bridge-playing population the problem was caused by you opening with no justifiable reason for doing so. I could see opening 1♠ if your black suits were reversed but to open 1♣ with this crap is asking for trouble.

Your partner doesn't just have 19 hcp...he has 7 controls, and the K of your rebid suit.

Having said that, I'd have bid a quiet invitational 4N, so there would be, from my p.o.v., some blame attached to partner but unless he knows that you open passing hands, it's tough to be hard on him.

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2013-November-08, 08:41, said:

I see most people are fancying the slam on this one. This was my partner's hand, he bid 3H over 2C (not sure why, since 2H is F1) then 4C over my 3NT. I tried to sign off in 5C but partner bid 6 anyway.

My hand was ♠K ♥xxx ♦QJxx ♣AJ109x. It was clearly my lucky day because not only did I get a club lead that picked up Qx with RHO, but both red-suit Kings were onside and spades broke 4-3. I scored up 1370 but should have made an overtrick!

Rough estimate of the chance of that layout is about 3%. Obviously the slam is better than that, perhaps 20%, but hardly a thing of beauty

ahydra

Seems to me that you were trying to fix partner with the blame for reaching a terrible contract, when to a very large part of the bridge-playing population the problem was caused by you opening with no justifiable reason for doing so. I could see opening 1♠ if your black suits were reversed but to open 1♣ with this crap is asking for trouble.

Your partner doesn't just have 19 hcp...he has 7 controls, and the K of your rebid suit.

Having said that, I'd have bid a quiet invitational 4N, so there would be, from my p.o.v., some blame attached to partner but unless he knows that you open passing hands, it's tough to be hard on him.

[c_corgi]

3♣ (over 2NT) seems like a good place to start.

[NickRW]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-08, 09:11, said:

That's a little unfair, there is no rebid problem, many people just rebid 2♣ and partner knows it can be this type of hand with 4red/5♣, the intermediates and touching honours make it worth opening IMO despite the stiff K.

Not sure you're going to find a lot of agreement with that. I accept that a lot of folk where I play would think nothing of a 2♣ rebid, so that isn't the problem. But the hand is short of working high cards. Give it another random honour, like the ♥Q, say, then you've got a bid. Maybe with ♥J - just.

Nick

[ahydra]

mikeh, on 2013-November-08, 10:08, said:

Seems to me that you were trying to fix partner with the blame for reaching a terrible contract, when to a very large part of the bridge-playing population the problem was caused by you opening with no justifiable reason for doing so. I could see opening 1♠ if your black suits were reversed but to open 1♣ with this crap is asking for trouble.

Your partner doesn't just have 19 hcp...he has 7 controls, and the K of your rebid suit.

Having said that, I'd have bid a quiet invitational 4N, so there would be, from my p.o.v., some blame attached to partner but unless he knows that you open passing hands, it's tough to be hard on him.

That's a harsh assumption to make (twice). If I wanted to ATB, I've have written ATB in the thread title or OP. This is not about assigning blame - after all, we got an excellent result on the deal - but about finding decent ways to bid this hand (things like invitational 4NT and 3D followed by 4C that posters have suggested).

I'm surprised to hear something like that from you actually given that your posts are normally very well-informed and respectful.

FWIW I would have thought partner would open this hand as well so he would be aware of the fact I can have 5C 4D in an 11HCP hand. I do like my 5431's - perhaps a bit too much in this case (consider how Kxx x is hugely better than K xxx). Given that we do generally play a conservative style perhaps I will pass this (along with the two hands in the other thread) next time. But the focus of this thread is on solely on partner's dilemma after 3NT.

ahydra

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2013-November-08, 10:48, said:

That's a harsh assumption to make (twice). If I wanted to ATB, I've have written ATB in the thread title or OP. This is not about assigning blame - after all, we got an excellent result on the deal - but about finding decent ways to bid this hand (things like invitational 4NT and 3D followed by 4C that posters have suggested).

I'm surprised to hear something like that from you actually given that your posts are normally very well-informed and respectful.

FWIW I would have thought partner would open this hand as well so he would be aware of the fact I can have 5C 4D in an 11HCP hand. I do like my 5431's - perhaps a bit too much in this case (consider how Kxx x is hugely better than K xxx). Given that we do generally play a conservative style perhaps I will pass this (along with the two hands in the other thread) next time. But the focus of this thread is on solely on partner's dilemma after 3NT.

ahydra

I accept that I misinterpreted your motive.

I remain of the view that your decision to open this hand was a large part of the problem, especially with this partner, whose bidding seems to have been confused.

Btw, what did you think his 3♥ call was? It seems to me that you read it as intended, which strikes me as fortunate but weird.

If 2♥ would have been natural and F1, it makes no sense for 3♥ to be played as natural and F1 and little sense for it to be natural and FG.

I prefer a method that uses 2♦ over 2♣ as an artificial force, freeing up other calls for other purposes, but without that gadget, if 2♥ were natural and forcing I would use 3♥ as either a splinter (my preference, allowing for 3N when partner is loaded in hearts and has no slam values) or 5-5 or better in the majors, invitational values. It seems wrong, in principle, to have two different calls here both showing essentially the same hand.

Had he bid 2♥, as you seem to imply he ought to have done, the auction becomes trivial. You bid 2N, and he has an easy 4N.

I don't see any point in N futzing around with some esoteric, subtle 3♦ call, which seems to me to do nothing but make further bidding more ambiguous.

As it is, with the auction that you had, I don't like 5♣. To me, the most regressive bid you could make would have been 4N. Now, if you saw partner as implying a stiff diamond, I can see 5♣ as plausible, but I still wouldn't try it. This hand screams that we want out as soon as possible and 5♣ sure sounds like a tentative diamond stop and a 6th club.

Even better would have been you passing and then bidding 1N over your partner's 1♠ (preferably semi-forcing, but that really doesn't matter...this hand remains indifferent with the misfit, and I do see that your stiff is the K). All roads now lead to 3N.

Btw, I have no problem with a style in which decent 11 counts are opened: one of my former regular partners frequently opens such hands. However, as you recognized, K xxx QJxx AJ10xx is not at all the same as x Kxx QJxx AJ10xx, and any attempt to justify opening this hand by reference to that hand is silly. Only a beginner thinks that they are at all the same in terms of playing strength or, more to the point, later bidding. You're not a beginner