[Free]

Consider the following bidding (playing ACOL):

1♣ - 1♠ - Dbl - 1NT
Dbl - 2♠ - pass - pass
Dbl?

Do you consider this Double penalty or takeout?

[pbleighton]

Takeout. Pd was allowed to pass before because of the 2S bid.

Peter

[DrTodd13]

My rule is that when partner and I haven't agreed on a strain that doubles of opponent's bids below game are for takeout. On this particular hand, would a hand with 4 spades want to double with his trumps in front of declarer's 6 spades? I don't think so.

[Double !]

Might one respond to a question with a question? ( "NO!" )

How much of the meaning of the second double would be influenced by whether or not the opps are playing pre-emptive jump-overcalls? If they are, then something doesn't quite add up. Given the bidding so far, is it possible for opener to have a relatively strong 17-18 balanced or semibalanced hand that is too good to pass 2S, and can tolerate it if P now bids a 5-card suit or has spades and can convert. If not, would the doubler have hit 1NT with good spades and an almost solid club suit (5 or 6) and entries, relying on the neg Xer to cover the red suits? Curious to hear opinions, because I think this helps determine the meaning of the second double.

[hrothgar]

Free, on Jan 19 2005, 03:22 AM, said:

Consider the following bidding (playing ACOL):

1♣ - 1♠ - Dbl - 1NT
Dbl - 2♠ - pass - pass
Dbl?

Do you consider this Double penalty or takeout?

Should be penalty

Quick question for anyone suggesting that Double is for takeout:

What would 2NT show in this auction?

[han]

Perhaps also important is the meaning of the first double. If you play the first one as support (as I do) then it makes sense to play the second double as take-out (as I would). If you pllay the first double as strong without support (as you might playing a weak notrump in ACOL) then you might want to play this as penalty (QJ108 Kx AQx KQ10x would certainly do, even in front of the spade bidder)

[luke warm]

todd's argument is good, but i have to admit my first instinct is this is a penalty double... partner showed hearts and (maybe) diamond tolerance, he knows i bid clubs... i'd pass or correct to clubs, thinking the x is penalty

[dogsbreath]

I think double is 'optional' .. ie suggesting we defend but leaving the final decision to p. His bidding so far suggests a min neg double (8+hcp) with red cards. Surely the X of 1nt suggests no great red-suit fit but enough HCP to expect to beat 1nt.. our fit hasnt improved since then so primary interest must be penalty.
Rgds, Dog

[the hog]

Agree with Richard - penalties. X of 1NT was penalties. Once a penalty X has been made further doubles are also penalties.

[Cowology]

dogsbreath, on Jan 18 2005, 10:20 PM, said:

I think double is 'optional' .. ie suggesting we defend but leaving the final decision to p. His bidding so far suggests a min neg double (8+hcp) with red cards. Surely the X of 1nt suggests no great red-suit fit but enough HCP to expect to beat 1nt.. our fit hasnt improved since then so primary interest must be penalty.
Rgds, Dog

I tend to agree with this. Double for me is penalty oriented but pass is not mandatory.

[joker_gib]

dogsbreath, on Jan 18 2005, 10:20 PM, said:

I think double is 'optional' .. ie suggesting we defend but leaving the final decision to p. His bidding so far suggests a min neg double (8+hcp) with red cards. Surely the X of 1nt suggests no great red-suit fit but enough HCP to expect to beat 1nt.. our fit hasnt improved since then so primary interest must be penalty.
Rgds, Dog

Also agree with Dog and others. This is strongly penalty oriented !

[badderzboy]

Acol Bidding was

1♣ - 1♠ - Dbl - 1NT
Dbl - 2♠ - pass - pass
Dbl?

As a BILlie I would look at the situation this way What has opener got and what hasn't he got ?

If he has a balanced hand then he is 15+ and is 4-x-x-4 shape as he didn't open 1NT and did not support ♥s or ♦'s after the sputnik double and hasn't made a game NT try with a cue-bid etc.

If he is unbalanced then he must be 5-x-x-4 shape or more shapely with a nice hand to double NT and then ♠'s.

For the double over 1NT I would strongly suspect 17+ points and so I would take the last double as a penalty.

The overcaller may have only 5♠'s and his partner 0-2 (he did'nt pre-emptively raise the suit over the double as what would you have done with this hand?

---

over 1NTx?

Feel free to point out the flaws in my thinking

[joker_gib]

badderzboy, on Jan 19 2005, 03:57 AM, said:

The overcaller may have only 5♠'s and his partner 0-2 (he did'nt pre-emptively raise the suit over the double as what would you have done with this hand?
 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ KQJxx ♥ xx ♦ Kx ♣ xxx

over 1NTx?

Not for me, the overcaller must have 6♠ to rebid the suit !

Over 1NTx, I would pass as I've already shown what I have and it was up to partner to bid 1NT with something consistent !

[Chamaco]

In my opinion the final double is cooperative and more often than not it will show a balanced 18-19 hand.
(However, I am not knowledgeable in Acol, so this might be different)

Assuming this is true , responder should leave the double in unless his hand is quite distributional.

[Chamaco]

Hannie, on Jan 19 2005, 02:06 AM, said:

If you play the first one as support (as I do) then it makes sense to play the second double as take-out (as I would).

Responder did not show a suit, but he doubled (negative I suppose).

Do you use support doubles opposite pard's negative double ?

[whereagles]

It doesn't really matter what it is. Opener has extras and wants to compete. Responder is probably going to pass regardless.

[Flame]

Penaly, even the double before (over 1NT) seems to be penalty so this one is definelty penalty.

[helene_t]

What about this: the second double was psyche-exposing (that is, it shows that there are some 50 HCPs in this board). They could easily have 6-3 spade fit.

[mr1303]

I think double here should be strong balanced. Responder can do whatever he likes opposite a (presumed) 18-19 balanced hand. Playing horrible disgusting weak no trump I suppose this could have a good 16-17 count as well, which is another reason why I don't play it.

[flytoox]

Penalty. Enough T/O for me, hehe.