[cherdano]

For me, it is penalty, because the double of 1NT was penalty, too.

[flytoox]

cherdano, on Jan 19 2005, 02:20 PM, said:

For me, it is penalty, because the double of 1NT was penalty, too.

The double of 1N is discussing point. I am not sure it is, or should be, penalty. Opener could have some 3145 intermediate hand.

[pclayton]

There is no reason why the 2nd double should not be penalty. How on earth do you whack them off? Very likely that opener has 4 good spades and they are in a misfit. AQJx, Kx, Axx, KQxx would certainly qualify.

I am aware about the general rule that some pairs play "all doubles below 2S as TO", but this is just common sense. And Ron's point is valid, once we make a penalty x, all subsequent dbls are penalty.

[han]

Chamaco, on Jan 19 2005, 04:44 AM, said:

Hannie, on Jan 19 2005, 02:06 AM, said:

If you play the first one as support (as I do) then it makes sense to play the second double as take-out (as I would).

Responder did not show a suit, but he doubled (negative I suppose).

Do you use support doubles opposite pard's negative double ?

Yes I do play support doubles over negative doubles. Partner's negative double shows 4+ hearts, so why shouldn't I want to show 3-card support. A more relevant question is perhaps whether one wouldn't need this double to be penalty. I don't play it that way (for example, 1C-1H-(1NT)-Dbl would be support).

I agree that if the first double is panalty, then the first double should also be penalty. I play all doubles below game as take-out, unless in some obvious situations (e.g. partner has preempted, they are running or they make a 2-suited overcall).

[arrows]

Takeout, takeout, why don't just "out"?

1st: "takeout"
2nd: "this hand belongs to us"
3rd: "You are out of your mind"

IMHO:
1. Double usually means hard to find a natural alternative.
2. Double also means you are happy if partner decide to leave it in.
The more you double and the higher the level is, the more your parnter
should think of passing the double.
3 The following double is penalty in principle.
(1) If partner has preempted.
(2) We have already converted a takeout double into penalty.
(3) The double of a suit in which, one of us showed 5+ cards.
(4) We have already made a penalty double.

[the hog]

I expect the layout to be something like
KJTx
Qx
Kx
AKJxx

The 1NT bidder should have about 10-11 hcp for his bid. What is the bet he has nothing like it?

Hannie, if you play "support Xs" by opener here, what do you do with my example hand? Secondly, a support x of what suit; does the -ve X not also show Ds?

Whereagles, it DOES "matter what it is". I have noticed in certain of your posts that you frequently make a gambling pass of a takeout X. Most players don't pass takeout xs unless THEY have a stack in the suit. This is not the case here.

[Double !]

Glad others also noticed that there were about 50 hcp dealt on this particular hand.
The suspect is the 1NT bidder- it just didn't add up, after all, unless partner was planning to convert the 2nd double, the opps have 9+ spades between them.

[han]

The_Hog, on Jan 19 2005, 08:11 PM, said:

I expect the layout to be something like
KJTx
Qx
Kx
AKJxx

The 1NT bidder should have about 10-11 hcp for his bid. What is the bet he has nothing like it?

Hannie, if you play "support Xs" by opener here, what do you do with my example hand? Secondly, a support x of what suit; does the -ve X not also show Ds?

This is not a good hand for me, perhaps I should rethink my methods.

I would probably try 2NT, but I wouldn't like it.

imo The negative double does not show diamonds (I play them as in "Negative Doubles" by Bergen). A support double would show exactly three hearts here, that's it.